Top 10 tweaks.

Talk about any rules that don't directly fall under personal combat
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thirtythr33
Editorial Inquisition
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Top 10 tweaks.

Postby thirtythr33 » 11 Dec 2016, 23:17

This is a branch off from another discussion. I've quoted in the relevant parts. This thread is intended to be about what you think the most important small fixes are, with suggestions of how and why those small fixes are good. This thread is not intended for long debates on large game-changing fixes or small inconsequential tweak.

If there were 8 things I could change about BoB right now, they would be:
1) Fix the Karma table to be closer to what I suggested in the advancement thread. Dying shouldn't get you more character points.
2) Add combat penalties to Weapons and Shields, just like there is for armor. Up to 2CP penalty for 2h Flails or Tower Shields.
3) Add a few paragraphs specifically dealing with how Social Skills work against players.
It is dealt with rarely in other games, so I think it needs to be elaborated better than what can fit in the sidebar on p40.
Also, the sidebar doesn't clearly explain other social skills like Command or Intrigue work and gives unclear ruling on how Edges/Flaws work.
It also doesn't explain what a players recourses are if they fail. Can I agree to a manipulation, and then not follow through as soon as I leave the room?
4) Increase cost of Wrap to 2. Wrap is much better than precision thrust (more likely to hit location and ignores Favoring) and costs less.
5) Disengage is too strong. It resests all 3 temporary disadvantages in combat (impact, reach control and initiative).
Add a positioning roll to "Corner" which prevents disengagement, and have disengage force you to roll white if engaged on in the next round.
6) Add a rule or maneuver that lets you ignore armor with a dagger in grapple by jamming it between the layers. Can only be thrust and has very high AC of 3.
7) Fix beat. It doesn't work how it is advertised. Right now its only good for preempting and restraining not setting up followup attacks.
I don't have any suggestions for how it could be fixed though.
8) make Speed + Athletics the default roll for moving on foot in a Skirmish and to make Positioning rolls calculated as Speed + CP dice.
That way, 1 point of speed will be used at almost 1 per Round;
While you are in a skirmish, you are probably moving (and hence using speed)
and while you are in a melee combat you have the option to force the use of positioning every round
Which nicely brings it into line of 1 attribute = 1 combat dice per round


nemedeus wrote:I fully agree with all of these (and also I don't want Speed to be Merged with Agility).

thirtythr33 wrote:It also doesn't explain what a players recourses are if they fail. Can I agree to a manipulation, and then not follow through as soon as I leave the room?

I think that last is easy: just use the Temptation mechanic. As in, if you follow through with it, you get a SA point, and you have to pay a SA point if you don't follow through with it.

I've expressed my overall dislike of FATE before, but that one mechanic is easily the greatest contribution to RPG design ever made, in my mind. It's just so versatile and applicable.

thirtythr33 wrote:7) Fix beat. It doesn't work how it is advertised. Right now its only good for preempting and restraining not setting up followup attacks.
I don't have any suggestions for how it could be fixed though.

I know you have explained that somewhere else, but could you run that by me again?


In fencing, a beat is usually used offensively as a setup for a subsequent final attack or as a way to gain initiative while on defense.

In BoB, if you want to preempt in order to restrain (because you aren't confident you can preempt and kill them through their armor or you don't have lots of dice) the only options are Beat and Grab. If you don't want to wrestle, beat is the only restraining offensive maneuver you can use. Also the mechanics feels a little weird preempting and using beat, then asking your opponent to roll their already restrained attack to figure out how many successes they would have made, so you know how many bonus dice to get.

It's not useful for setting up attacks because most of the time your opponent can just choose not to defend your beat. If you each have 16cp and you try to beat for 8 dice, your target just doesn't defend. You win, his weapon is not usable next round but he now has 16 dice left to dodge, grab or disengage with versus your 8. One way to fix it would be for it to make you defend at disadvantage on MOS3 or more or otherwise penalize not defending it.

Benedict wrote:I second that.

Regarding point 6, I had an idea for quite some time.

Change the Emphasis of Daggers from

Reach Control: +4 CP instead of +2CP when you have Reach Control
to
Close Quarters: Gain +2CP when engaged in a grapple and you have Initiative, or when you have Reach Control. This stacks with Reach Control bonus.

That approach would require some tinkering with Spear Emphasis too, and I haven't thought anything yet.


Agamemnon wrote:
Benedict wrote:4. As for SAs affecting play. Like thirty33 already said, I believe that some mechanics should be there regarding social interraction, or social combat as the hype is these days.

I already have some thoughts on that, but they are part of the skills mechanics overhaul, rather than the bit we're chewing on here.
"O happy dagger!
This is thy sheath; there rust, and let me die."

- Juliet Capulet
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nemedeus
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Re: Top 10 tweaks.

Postby nemedeus » 11 Dec 2016, 23:48

thirtythr33 wrote:In fencing, a beat is usually used offensively as a setup for a subsequent final attack or as a way to gain initiative while on defense.

In BoB, if you want to preempt in order to restrain (because you aren't confident you can preempt and kill them through their armor or you don't have lots of dice) the only options are Beat and Grab. If you don't want to wrestle, beat is the only restraining offensive maneuver you can use. Also the mechanics feels a little weird preempting and using beat, then asking your opponent to roll their already restrained attack to figure out how many successes they would have made, so you know how many bonus dice to get.

It's not useful for setting up attacks because most of the time your opponent can just choose not to defend your beat. If you each have 16cp and you try to beat for 8 dice, your target just doesn't defend. You win, his weapon is not usable next round but he now has 16 dice left to dodge, grab or disengage with versus your 8. One way to fix it would be for it to make you defend at disadvantage on MOS3 or more or otherwise penalize not defending it.

Ah, i see what you mean.

EDIT: the only other simple solution other than the one below I can think of is, get the MoS as bonus instead. i can see why that would be a bad idea, effectively would make the maneuver the best choice every time you know you are noticeably more skilled than your opponent. Hmm.

I have a maybe weird suggestion: make it work like feint. You announce your attack, your opponent announces thier defence, you call "Beat!", pay the activation cost, and do the Beat.

In my own game that i had before Bastards, i had a whole cluster of maneuvers working like that; i called these "Trick Attacks":

Trick Attacks
in a battle, the cost of any of these attacks goes up by 1 every time they are used on the same enemy. They are always used when the opponent has declared a defence to one's own attack. Just as normal, the cost of the original attack has to be payed too.
Feint (base cost 1): you can put in additional dice from your combat pool. to use, make a normal attack and call a feint when your enemy declares his defence. pay the activation cost; then, spend an additional number of dice (maximum; your Agility), roll those, and add their successes to your attack result.
Invite (base cost 2): announce no attack. if your opponent then takes initiative and announces an attack, call the Invite and pay the activation cost. You then may do an Evasive Attack or a Cross Attack.
Stop Short (base cost 2): you don't commit to the attack and keep the enemy on the tip of their toes. to use, make a normal attack and call a stop when your enemy declares their defence. pay the activation cost; the attack is canceled and you retain initiative. this ends the exchange.
(what was i thinking...)

Deer Lord, look at this:
Beat (harmless): enemy's next action with his weapon has cost increased by twice the degree of success. Note that your opponent still has to declare a defence.
WHAT WAS I THINKING?



As we are talking tweaks, the current hacklist in my Campaign Document is as following:

Hacks and Adjustments wrote:1. d6 instead of d10
2. Thus, Wound Levels:
--1, 2: TN+0
--3, 4: TN+1
--5: TN +2
3. SA Firing: Exploding Dice.
4. SA points are a single pool, can be burned for bonus dice. If SA is firing: +2d per point.
5. Rolls for Pre-empting, Positioning and Movement: Speed +1d per 2 CP spent.
6. For skill checks, Willpower replaces any uses of Stamina.
7. If CP penalty from equipment is higher than Strength, the penalty applies double.
8. Weapons now have CP penalties:
--weapons of Long reach: 0.25
--weapons of Extended reach: 1.0
--medium shields (covering up to +2 areas): 1.0
--large shields (covering up to +3 areas): 2.0
9. Add a positioning roll to "Corner" which prevents disengagement, and have disengage force you to roll white if engaged on in the next round. Source: thirtythr33
10. AC for Wrap is now 2.
11. the Athletics skill is removed, this is a attribute pool (Strength + Speed) now.
12. New skill: Climbing



Btw: congratz on your 666th post, thirtythr33!
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