The King is Dead, Long Live the King

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nemedeus
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 14 Jul 2017, 09:34

Benedict wrote:From a rules point of view I'd say that a master locksmith and a master (neuro)surgeon would both tap their ATV in their respective skill. If the doctor tried picking a lock he'd get A dice at ftn6 with the option to tap in surgeon. And vice versa.
... so, does he also get to do that for Perform (Piano)?
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Benedict » 14 Jul 2017, 09:41

By the rules? Yes.

Good luck on passing Req9 (that's 10 successes) at FTN6, no matter how many his dice, to actually play like this:


youtu.be/WhLDse5R8dQ
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by thorgarth » 14 Jul 2017, 11:42

Benedict wrote:From a rules point of view I'd say that a master locksmith and a master (neuro)surgeon would both tap their ATV in their respective skill. If the doctor tried picking a lock he'd get Agi dice at ftn6 with the option to tap in surgeon. Maybe even vice versa. Ie the locksmith trying to stitch up a bleeding wound would roll Agi FTN6 + lockpick tap (steady hands?).
My point exactly. While logical would say that to achieve a very high learned ability (skill) one would benefit, almost to the point of saying that it would necessarily need a high degree of natural aptitude (physical or mental aptitude - read, Attribute), one is autonomous from the other. Hence I would adjudicate that both the neurosurgeon and the master burglar would naturally, and without much need of justification, tap into their Agility Tap Value. I would also allow, but in this case in a more restrictive way, for the Surgeon to use it´s skill as a tap value if he was trying to open a lock, after all it´s a skill with that relies on great manual dexterity, precision and steady hands, and vice-versa.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Agamemnon » 14 Jul 2017, 12:36

Sword & Scoundrel-0.1.2.pdf, pg10 wrote:Regardless of source, tapping has some restrictions attached. First and foremost, it’s up to the player to both nominate the abilities or traits to be tapped and to justify how they apply. Where possible, that justification should be role-played into the conflict itself. Second, this nomination is subject to GM veto. Attributes in particular have a higher bar for tapping because they could otherwise be so broadly applicable (see: Attributes). It isn’t assumed that players will be able to tap something on every test they encounter. Finally, regardless of what is being tapped, only two things may be tapped into a single pool.
Sword & Scoundrel-0.1.2.pdf, pg31 wrote:Tapping Attributes
Most abilities are pretty generous in tapping. If you can make a decent case for it, they give their dice. However, because attributes are so broad they require a little clarification on how they can be tapped. Most of what a skill or ability does is already assumed in the value of the ability itself. Having a high Perception doesn’t make you better at Larceny, even if one could argue that awareness of one’s surroundings is fairly crucial to breaking and entering. Your ability to effectively burgle is wholly contained within the Larceny skill. Instead, attributes are tapped when they are applying a benefit above and beyond the ability being tested. For instance, using a crowbar in conjunction with one’s tools to pry a lock loose might be a justification for tapping Brawn into a Larceny roll.
Emphasis, mine.

The game is not intended to work like D&D, where every skill roll will have a stat associated with it that will modify its use. It is not assumed that you can tap an attribute in any given situation -- in fact, it's generally harder to get an attribute involved in a skill check simply because that means you're using the skill in a way that is somewhat different than the default assumptions of how that skill is used. This is why we don't have a "Social" or "Charisma" attribute, and why we no longer have Acumen. In both cases, the prime function of those attributes were as modifiers for skills.

I'd be reluctant to even go with the idea that a world-class neurosurgeon would necessarily have a higher agility. Agility in this case is literally about physical coordination, balance, etc. Athlete stuff. This makes a great deal of sense when you look at both the description of the tasks Agility is tested on, and then what agility actually goes into - Speed and Reflexes. None of this is manual dexterity. Manual dexterity is encompassed in the skills involved in the same way that any kind of charisma your character might have is manifest through their purchase of social skills and any kind of intelligence (here in the classical sense of the word) is almost purely manifested through Education, Lore, etc. After all, consider the reverse. Why would our world-class neurosurgeon also be something of an athlete and an acrobat? I've met neurosurgeons before. None of them looked like they'd be hopping fences or walking tightropes any time soon.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 14 Jul 2017, 13:24

Agamemnon wrote:
I'd be reluctant to even go with the idea that a world-class neurosurgeon would necessarily have a higher agility.
forgot to mention in my earlier reply but i absolutely agree with this.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Benedict » 14 Jul 2017, 13:26

Same here. Or that a master boxman (the guy who cracks safes) has the same agility as the guy who scales over the wall barehanded. Thieves did operate (and still are) in groups for that reason. Each contributes different skills.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by higgins » 14 Jul 2017, 14:24

I think this issue mainly stems from the fact that people have played a ton of different RPGs and in almost every single one of them, the Agility/Dexterity/whatever is disproportionately useful and disproportionately widely applicable. So, people get confused when we break this trend.

But in the end, the problem is essentially moot -- as PCs are often pressed for time, Speed becomes quite easy tap to justify in the presence of a looming threat. And since Speed stems from Agility, you can never tap both of them anyway.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 14 Jul 2017, 20:28

I think this issue mainly stems from the fact that people have played a ton of different RPGs and in almost every single one of them, the Agility/Dexterity/whatever is disproportionately useful and disproportionately widely applicable. So, people get confused when we break this trend.
And i'm glad you did. That is really something that has annoyed me for a long time.
But in the end, the problem is essentially moot -- as PCs are often pressed for time, Speed becomes quite easy tap to justify in the presence of a looming threat. And since Speed stems from Agility, you can never tap both of them anyway.
Ah, but isn't "skillfullness" in a thing essentially the same as "being fast at a thing"? reference: the speedrunning community, pretty sure that's noting to do with agility.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by thorgarth » 15 Jul 2017, 13:44

Agamemnon wrote:
The game is not intended to work like D&D, where every skill roll will have a stat associated with it that will modify its use. It is not assumed that you can tap an attribute in any given situation -- in fact, it's generally harder to get an attribute involved in a skill check simply because that means you're using the skill in a way that is somewhat different than the default assumptions of how that skill is used. This is why we don't have a "Social" or "Charisma" attribute, and why we no longer have Acumen. In both cases, the prime function of those attributes were as modifiers for skills.

I'd be reluctant to even go with the idea that a world-class neurosurgeon would necessarily have a higher agility. Agility in this case is literally about physical coordination, balance, etc. Athlete stuff. This makes a great deal of sense when you look at both the description of the tasks Agility is tested on, and then what agility actually goes into - Speed and Reflexes. None of this is manual dexterity. Manual dexterity is encompassed in the skills involved in the same way that any kind of charisma your character might have is manifest through their purchase of social skills and any kind of intelligence (here in the classical sense of the word) is almost purely manifested through Education, Lore, etc. After all, consider the reverse. Why would our world-class neurosurgeon also be something of an athlete and an acrobat? I've met neurosurgeons before. None of them looked like they'd be hopping fences or walking tightropes any time soon.
You make it sound as if that was the philosophy defended by the system from it´s inception, and not something that was actually part of it´s core system for the 1st part of BoB/S&S existence, unless you actually were striving for a D&D clone with the BoB Beta?!?

Anyway this kind of system design with this inconsistencies and incongruities, and arguments behind them are... odd. So Agility is an attribute, but manual dexterity is something that it´s inherent to a learned skill, or at least something that is "encompassed in said skills", no matter that in the previous version it was everything BUT that, and agility included "actions concerning precision".

This kind of "gymnastics" ain´t for me. Good luck though with the project, there is always a niche for such indie systems.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by higgins » 15 Jul 2017, 13:57

nemedeus wrote:
But in the end, the problem is essentially moot -- as PCs are often pressed for time, Speed becomes quite easy tap to justify in the presence of a looming threat. And since Speed stems from Agility, you can never tap both of them anyway.
Ah, but isn't "skillfullness" in a thing essentially the same as "being fast at a thing"? reference: the speedrunning community, pretty sure that's noting to do with agility.
Speedrunning? As in... playing computer games? That's hardly a thing we're trying to model, but if your ultimate goal is to find a borderline-cheating way to defeat a game as efficiently as possible, surely Cunning would apply?
thorgarth wrote:So Agility is an attribute, but manual dexterity is something that it´s inherent to a learned skill, or at least something that is "encompassed in said skills", no matter that in the previous version it was everything BUT that, and agility included "actions concerning precision".
I don't get this gripe. We revamped not just the core mechanics of establishing dice pools, but the WHOLE attribute setup. Of course the definitions are going to change. Especially so when skills can now stand on their own, as they previously couldn't. And now we CAN have highly skilled characters with poor attributes, whereas before, good attributes were vitally important to reach a decent dice pool in a field. So, in fact, our game has become lot more simulationist in this matter -- and simulationism is something you seem to be fond of, except in this case, for some reason. I just don't get it.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Agamemnon » 15 Jul 2017, 14:50

> Using a system that was different enough to have its own name to argue what the rules in this edition are
> Not just reading what the rules in this game say the rules in this game are

Image
thorgarth wrote:This kind of "gymnastics" ain´t for me. Good luck though with the project, there is always a niche for such indie systems.
Bye, Felicia.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Barbarossa » 15 Jul 2017, 14:51

thorgarth wrote:
This kind of "gymnastics" ain´t for me. Good luck though with the project, there is always a niche for such indie systems.
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Benedict » 15 Jul 2017, 14:51

Thorgarth, your argument is invalid. Because you miss the point. Still there's no need to say anything about it. Because:
throgarth wrote:This kind of "gymnastics" ain´t for me. Good luck though with the project, there is always a niche for such indie systems.
Rrrrright. After all there's a niche even for MML (gasp), I fail to see why there's no place for 'Scoundrels.

Take care. ;)
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Barbarossa » 15 Jul 2017, 15:08

Barb !!ESUzD+RcKBs 07/15/17(Sat)15:08:05 No.34554755

Checking for dubs!

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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 15 Jul 2017, 15:36

higgins wrote:[
Speedrunning? As in... playing computer games? That's hardly a thing we're trying to model, but if your ultimate goal is to find a borderline-cheating way to defeat a game as efficiently as possible, surely Cunning would apply?
Hmm, that's true!

Nonetheless, to specify my argument a bit better: if you ever watched a speedrun, finding exploits is like 5% of the effort (once you actually try for a record). The actual meat of it is pulling them off, which as i understand it is a matter of training above all (like if you look at speedruns of mario hacks in particular, with the frame- and pixel-perfect inputs that are needed sometimes...).
In simpler words, what i'm trying to get at is, being very good at something implies thousands of hours of training, which in turn implies being able to do that thing not only much better but much faster too. Although nobody disputes that, i guess... heh

Granted, i don't do speedruns myself, i just like watching them c:
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