The King is Dead, Long Live the King

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Siggi
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Siggi » 24 Jul 2017, 10:32

Korbel wrote:Some months ago, Siggi said that he doesn't understand why you're doing all of this (new draft and so). And my reaction was pretty much the same. Frankly, still I don't understand. <...> But I kept my mouth shut, generally. Did'nt want to complain. I knew it wouldn't change anything, just introduce some bad fluids here. And I didn't want to hurt the feelings of Ag and Hig, bevause theyve done many cool things for us.
Korbel, you're definitely a better person than me. :) Sorry to hear that you're leaving the forums for a time (hopefully).

I don't write on the forums as much as some other people, but all of you, guys, seem like old acquaintances to me. And it's sad when someone leaves.
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nemedeus
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 03 Aug 2017, 15:08

So what's the status?
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EinBein
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by EinBein » 03 Aug 2017, 16:18

nemedeus wrote:So what's the status?
Wondered when the first one would become nervous ;)
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nemedeus
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 03 Aug 2017, 17:44

EinBein wrote:
nemedeus wrote:So what's the status?
Wondered when the first one would become nervous ;)
you can say that again, I've been on edge all day! i wanna see the new maneuvers and emphases (which is hardly a secret).
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thirtythr33
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by thirtythr33 » 04 Aug 2017, 00:19

Unfortunately there's no release this week. Agamemnon hasn't been idle though, he's been doing lots of work for the upcoming large release.

In the meantime, Benedict and I have been helping Agamemnon with the traits tables and priorities. The goal was to encourage people to take higher priority in Traits without making things unattainable in the middling tiers. This is what we have at the current iteration:

Tier / Trait points
T1 2pt
T2 4pt
T3 6pt
T4 9pt
T5 14pt

Greater nobles gives
2d Patron OR 4pts to build faction
OR -2pt to claim if you cashout

Character Traits
1pt 0d
2pt 1d
4pt 2d
6pt 3d
-1 Temptation

Background
2pt 0d
3pt 1d
5pt 2d
7pt 3d

Claim
4pt equal or below station
7pt above station
10pt ruler-ship of kingdom
-1 currently held by family
-1 wouldn't usually inherit
-1 multiple claimants
-1 held by someone more powerful

Enemy
-1 same power
-2 greater power

Faction
2pt 0d
4pt 1d
6pt 2d
9pt 3d
-2 bad standing
0 rank and file member
1 position of importance
3 faction leader

Patron
2pt 1d
4pt 2d
6pt 3d

Relationships
-1pt 0d help for price
1pt 1d will help but expect own favors
3pt 2d help as long as there no great risk to them
5pt 3d will help at great risk

-1pt no power eg deckhand
1pt minor power eg ship captain
3pt significant power eg captain of mercenaries
5pt great power eg admiral of pirate fleet

Pick UP TO 3 relationship modifiers
2 above social class
1 below social class
1 mentor of PC
1 significantly indebted to PC
-1 student of PC
-1 owed debt by PC
-1 blood relative
-1 romantic relationship
-1 illicit relationship
-1 antagonistic
-1 flawed or unreliable
-2 member of faction that gives status
-2 member of same faction

Reputation
1pt 0d
3pt 1d
5pt 2d
8pt 3d

Retainer
5pt 10pp
6pt 11pp
7pt 12pp
8pt 13pp
9pt 14pp

Status
3pt 1d
5pt 2d
7pt 3d
9pt 4d

2pt full power
0pt full power in one area
-2pt limited power and limited area
-4pt mostly ceremonial or honorific status
-3pt for faction purchase

See what kind of things you can come up with and if anything looks out of place.
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This is thy sheath; there rust, and let me die."

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higgins
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by higgins » 04 Aug 2017, 03:34

Yeah, we should have modded knighted you guys earlier as the math double checks and other contributions are suuuper helpful. :)
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nemedeus
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 04 Aug 2017, 05:21

welp, my character concept works even less with this. but good to hear things are moving along! (i guess i shouldn't have said anything... welp, 2d rep it is for me then, i figure... wait, can't even afford that... dang)
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Benedict
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Benedict » 04 Aug 2017, 05:53

nemedeus wrote:i guess i shouldn't have said anything... welp, 2d rep it is for me then, i figure... wait, can't even afford that... dang
T3 Traits = 6 pts
+8pts 3d Reputation
-2pts Major Enemy
6pts net.

Meaning you need a min T3 investment for a national Reputation in addition to your free Traits. Also note that Reputation got a discount. And it might get more. I can only guess until the new update is out.

Think it's best to put Tiers into perspective:
Agamemnon wrote:No one has to have a T1 in anything. Everyone can easily make a character with T3s across the board. From a balance perspective, we can safely argue that to be the "default" character. Any time anyone has taken a T2 or a T1, they are reducing one of their potential T3s to increase another. Choosing a T2 or a T1 should hurt a bit, by comparison. You're choosing to weaken yourself in some fashion in order to have significant gains in another area.
I agree 100% with the guys on that one. If you want to be stronger in one area you should be weaker in another area. The idea is to make every possible Tier combination an attractive proposition for play.

Which means that concepts should be created with this in mind. Ofc I'm remaking both my characters when the new update comes out. Not switching to new characters, just adapting concept to new tiers. ;)
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nemedeus
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 04 Aug 2017, 08:45

Benedict wrote:
nemedeus wrote:i guess i shouldn't have said anything... welp, 2d rep it is for me then, i figure... wait, can't even afford that... dang
T3 Traits = 6 pts
+8pts 3d Reputation
-2pts Major Enemy
6pts net.

Meaning you need a min T3 investment for a national Reputation in addition to your free Traits. Also note that Reputation got a discount. And it might get more. I can only guess until the new update is out.
I'm not even saying you're wrong. it's good that lower dIce values got generally more affordable with this, while high ones are locked behind high tier picks. i know i sounded like I'm complaining, but I'm not really. i like the idea of Denna the Wolf being sung of in nursery rhymes and i guess that should have it's price.
i guess for reputation specifically, you could have modifiers for whether it's a positive reputation or a negative one (like -1 pts. fit infamy); Denna is feared because her showing up usually means someone (or anyone) will die.
although that said i guess i can understand the argument why one would find infamy just as desirable as heroism.
Think it's best to put Tiers into perspective:
Agamemnon wrote:No one has to have a T1 in anything. Everyone can easily make a character with T3s across the board. From a balance perspective, we can safely argue that to be the "default" character. Any time anyone has taken a T2 or a T1, they are reducing one of their potential T3s to increase another. Choosing a T2 or a T1 should hurt a bit, by comparison. You're choosing to weaken yourself in some fashion in order to have significant gains in another area.
I agree 100% with the guys on that one. If you want to be stronger in one area you should be weaker in another area. The idea is to make every possible Tier combination an attractive proposition for play.

Which means that concepts should be created with this in mind. Ofc I'm remaking both my characters when the new update comes out. Not switching to new characters, just adapting concept to new tiers. ;)
yes, and skills t1 still needs more limits. I'm fine with going back to 20 points for t1(the other tiers are okay with the extra 5 points, i think), as well as limiting the maximum.
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Benedict
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Benedict » 04 Aug 2017, 10:28

nemedeus wrote:i guess for reputation specifically, you could have modifiers for whether it's a positive reputation or a negative one (like -1 pts. fit infamy); Denna is feared because her showing up usually means someone (or anyone) will die.
although that said i guess i can understand the argument why one would find infamy just as desirable as heroism.
It doesn't matter if you are known for good or ill. You'll get bonuses for associating with the right people according to your Reputation, and penalties for dealing with the wrong crowds.

To quote Oscar Wilde:
There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.
"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Agamemnon » 05 Aug 2017, 11:56

Barb and I went through and made a few characters this morning with ThirtyThr33's adjustments. This is what the current priority spread looks like:
Image

I'm feeling pretty good about what you get for each price point - particularly skills and traits. In all cases, we managed to get enough points to do what we wanted to do while still keeping the pressure on to make difficult choices about what we wanted. Barb is pretty happy with where things sit as well, offering at one point "it's really hard to make a character that isn't useful in some way."
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EinBein
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by EinBein » 05 Aug 2017, 12:35

Looks promising! Will check it tomorrow. What's the difference between Max and Cap and why has T4 Attrbutes a Max and T4 Skills a Cap?
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Agamemnon » 05 Aug 2017, 14:03

EinBein wrote:Looks promising! Will check it tomorrow. What's the difference between Max and Cap and why has T4 Attrbutes a Max and T4 Skills a Cap?
There's a very technical term for that, and it's called "a typo."

Ahem.

Cap means "you cannot have higher than this at character creation." Max is the most you can have ever. The absolute maximum you can have in skills or attributes is 8, unless you take a T5.
Sword and Scoundrel: On Role-Playing and Fantasy Obscura

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what’s incomplete and saying: "Now it’s complete because it’s ended here."
Collected Sayings of Muad’Dib, the Princess Irulan
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nemedeus
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by nemedeus » 05 Aug 2017, 18:39

okay this may be really nitpicky but... why 23 points for skills t2 instead of 24? like this, the gains per tier are +7, +9, +8, +10. seems a bit off, compared to +8, +8, +8, +10.

sorry if it's another typo...
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Agamemnon
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Re: The King is Dead, Long Live the King

Post by Agamemnon » 05 Aug 2017, 22:59

nemedeus wrote:okay this may be really nitpicky but... why 23 points for skills t2 instead of 24? like this, the gains per tier are +7, +9, +8, +10. seems a bit off, compared to +8, +8, +8, +10.

sorry if it's another typo...
It's 16, 24, 32, 40, 50.

Amusingly, it was caught shortly after the post was made. Alas. The danger of posting stuff prematurely.
Sword and Scoundrel: On Role-Playing and Fantasy Obscura

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what’s incomplete and saying: "Now it’s complete because it’s ended here."
Collected Sayings of Muad’Dib, the Princess Irulan
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