Current direction and skills.

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Marras
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Marras » 13 Feb 2017, 06:17

Regarding expertise...

Every dice matters :) Having said that I would be cool if you just ditched it but I have to agree that it helps to make characters more unique if you have expertises in addition to skills. One way to handle them could be a bit softer than just additional dice or change of TN. How about just a normal roll and if you happen to have an appropriate expertise then you have a better effect like reduced time (you pick the lock faster) or you craft a better quality lock (without having to generate a huge amount of successes). Heck, you could even have levels of expertise that grant this sort of increased effects but then it might be appropriate to have them as Edges.
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thirtythr33
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by thirtythr33 » 13 Feb 2017, 13:18

Now that exploding has been removed from the core rules, you now have another dimension to modify rolls on that isn't a TN shift or +/- dice. The reroll.

Examples:

Beauty: You reroll all 1s on any roll where appearance could play a factor.

Slip & Strike | DEF | AdV | AC1
Evade the opponent’s strike while responding
with your own. Defend while rerolling all 6s.
If successful, you may perform a follow-up attack.

There are several different ways to handle stacking, each with there own merits.

If you keep exploding as an option for burning Drives, you can have edges give it is a bonus. Eg
Expert: Pick a expertise for a skill. When rolling that expertise, your dice explode without having to pay the Drive cost.
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by higgins » 14 Feb 2017, 05:18

thirtythr33 wrote:Now that exploding has been removed from the core rules, you now have another dimension to modify rolls on that isn't a TN shift or +/- dice. The reroll.
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nemedeus
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by nemedeus » 14 Feb 2017, 07:45

higgins wrote:
thirtythr33 wrote:Now that exploding has been removed from the core rules, you now have another dimension to modify rolls on that isn't a TN shift or +/- dice. The reroll.
(snip)
thirtythr33 wrote: Beauty: You reroll all 1s on any roll where appearance could play a factor.
HAH, i had literally that mechanic in my documents for ages!

thirtythr33 wrote: There are several different ways to handle stacking, each with there own merits.
I had
- explosions go on forever (to reason)
- rerolls only apply once
- any reroll goes after explosions are finished

Btw #MakeScoundrelsExplodeAgain. I just like the mechanic too much.
thirtythr33 wrote: If you keep exploding as an option for burning Drives, you can have edges give it is a bonus.

If this is not in the game by release, i'm honestly gonna die a little inside.
thirtythr33 wrote:Eg
Expert: Pick a expertise for a skill. When rolling that expertise, your dice explode without having to pay the Drive cost.
That too i had in my own documents for a long time.
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Agamemnon » 15 Feb 2017, 03:49

higgins wrote:
thirtythr33 wrote:Now that exploding has been removed from the core rules, you now have another dimension to modify rolls on that isn't a TN shift or +/- dice. The reroll.
Image
This actually does open up quite a few options. I can easily imagine certain maneuvers rerolling 6s. Shields reroll 1s on defense, etc. However, I find that I have two primary concerns:

1) Another layer of handling time. We already have a bit of work in assembling the pool, then allocating dice, spending AC, then rolling. Adding "and then scanning for additional specific faces, then rerolling, then adjusting the total" does further complicate and slow down play. Not by much, maybe, but it's still worthy of consideration.

2) Between bonus dice, dis/advantage, and rerolling dice, we lay the groundwork for the stacking of bonuses things get that much harder to balance. We'll have to be very careful that we don't wind up in a situation where someone winds up with an attack that is hitting on 3s with an advantage while re-rolling 1s and 6s while getting bonus dice from yadda yadda.

While it would be an additional and welcome level of nuance for us to play with It's something that will take some careful thought before we implement it.
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thirtythr33
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by thirtythr33 » 15 Feb 2017, 12:31

Agamemnon wrote:1) Another layer of handling time
It is still massively less fiddly (and easier to explain) than exploding was.

Operation for rerolling 1s:
1) Roll dice.
2) Look for 1s.
3) Pick up 1s.
4) Roll 1s.
5) Count successes.

Operation for exploding:
1) Roll dice.
2) Count successes.
3) Look for 10s.
4) Pick up 10s.
5) Roll 10s.
6) Count new successes.
7) Add new successes to old successes.
8) Look for 10s.
9) If any 10s, go to 4, else end.

The streamlined version of exploding I was planning on using was:
1) Roll dice.
2) Count 10s.
3) Pick up new dice equal to the count.
4) Roll new dice.
5) Count successes.

Also, reroll would only be on some rolls, not all like exploding. It would feature in probably a couple of edges (Which are OPTIONAL) and a few maneuvers. It could also be a good candidate for burning SAs on instead of exploding.
Agamemnon wrote:2) Between bonus dice, dis/advantage, and rerolling dice, we lay the groundwork for the stacking of bonuses things get that much harder to balance.
Kind of? That might get to be a problem if you plan to release a dozen supplements that continually introduce new ways to get rerolls or dis/advantages and FTNs, but I don't see it being a problem with the rules now.
With the super simple rule "You can never reroll a reroll" you clamp down on a lot of sillyness.

Remember that reroll would be able to replace a bunch of places you are currently using things like FTN or dis/advantage, so there won't be a huge number of things left to stack. "Reroll 1s" inherently doesn't stack with itself. Dis/advantage doesn't stack with itself or FTN. If you are careful, you could even try to keep the types of bonuses segregated (eg Using FTN and dis/advantage for Maneuvers and combat stuff and using Rerolls for non-combat edges and Skills) or otherwise split them up such that the ones you don't want to stack are all the same type (reroll 1s stacks with reroll 2s but not other reroll 1s).

So really, the absolute most abusive case you can get is BTN4, advantage, reroll 1s and 2s and that still can't get more successes than there is dice in their dice pool (89% successes).
Even a simple "You can never reroll more than a single number at once, instead only reroll the highest." is another reasonable limiter.
Besides, you will have me around trying my very best to break it :P

This might be blasphemy, but reroll could be an opportunity to kill some darlings. Throwing out the FTN and/or advantage systems entirely in favor of the more flexible reroll system is an option too.
As far as I can tell the only places FTN is used is for the Disengage and Block maneuvers. That's a lot of rules baggage for just 2 maneuvers. Consider:
Disengage: Defend with advantage.
Block: Defend with a shield.

Small Shields: When blocking reroll 1s.
Large Shields: When blocking reroll 1s and 2s.

You can't go up to rerolling 3s though, since rerolling a 3 when you are BTN4 with advantage is bad.
Likewise, you can only use reroll 6s as a penalty since rerolling 5s is actually helpful if you are at BTN6.
But you would have reroll 1s, 2s, 6s, advantage, and disadvantage as modifiers that stack with eachother but not themselves.

To get around that weirdness you could do something like "reroll up to 5 failures" instead of specifying.
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Korbel » 15 Feb 2017, 13:14

Noob here. Is d6, TN 4, with rerolling 1s - somewhere about 60% to score a success?
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thirtythr33
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by thirtythr33 » 15 Feb 2017, 13:34

it is 0.5+1/6*0.5 = 58.3%
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Korbel » 15 Feb 2017, 13:45

Somehow I've missed the part where you rule that one cannot reroll his rerolls. Sorry.
Yeah so that's just 58,3%. Nicely halfway between TN4 and TN3 rolls, which are 50 and 66,6%.
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by thirtythr33 » 15 Feb 2017, 14:35

Funnily enough, if you allow infinite rerolls of rerolls, it is EXACTLY 60% You can simply treat it as if that is not a possible way to roll the dice. (ie, it becomes a 1d5)

Single reroll;

Rerolling 1s only
TN3 = 77.8%
TN4 = 58.3%
TN5 = 38.9%
TN6 = 19.4%

Rerolling 1s and 2s
TN3 = 88.8%
TN4 = 66.6%
TN5 = 44.4%
TN6 = 22.2%

Rerollings 6s
TN3 = 61.1%
TN4 = 41.6%
TN5 = 22.2%
TN6 = 2.7%




infinite rerolls

Rerolling 1s only
TN3 = 80%
TN4 = 60%
TN5 = 40%
TN6 = 20%

Rerolling 1s and 2s
TN3 = 100%
TN4 = 75%
TN5 = 50%
TN6 = 25%

Rerollings 6s
TN3 = 60%
TN4 = 40%
TN5 = 20%
TN6 = 0%
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Benedict » 15 Feb 2017, 15:32

The reroll mechanic is really great. I agree tho on both accounts from Agamemnon and thirtythr33 that it needs serious consideration and testing to avoid silly situations.

I have an alternative which I've been using on one of my drafts. However I'd like to share it with you guys. :)

It's about exploding.

Do note I use it in a X+Y format, but with the Tapping mechanic it could implemented.

I use 2 different color dice sets.

The pool uses one color by default which is non-exploding dice. This pool caps at 10 dice.
If modifiers push it above 10D the excess convert non-exploding dice to exploding ones.
Meaning that a pool of 14 is 6 normal dice + 4 exploding dice rolled at once.
Oh, and dice explode once, period. ;)


Since Scoundrel already uses two color D6s I guess it's easy to implement, should you'd want to go down the exploding path again. :)
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Benedict » 14 May 2017, 00:46

I apologize in advance for this vile act of necromancy.

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Given Korbel's concerns regarding the Floating City conversion and the replies I guess somehow we will work it out.
thirtythr33 wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Korbel wrote:Shit. Does it mean I will have to make some sacrifices, when conversing Marco from BoB to S&S?
I expect that ThirtyThr33 will give people some wiggle room to make the characters fit in the few cases that they don't.
This.
However that doesn't chagne the fact that the current S&S Skill List has killed Language. Imagine my shock, since Ferran is fluent in 5 languages.

It just slipped off the list? It will be a fuction of Edge/Flaw traits? Something else?

And since I'm asking anyway, any news when to expect new stuff? :mrgreen:
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Agamemnon » 14 May 2017, 02:30

Benedict wrote:However that doesn't chagne the fact that the current S&S Skill List has killed Language. Imagine my shock, since Ferran is fluent in 5 languages.

It just slipped off the list? It will be a fuction of Edge/Flaw traits? Something else?
The skill functions almost identically to it's 'Bastards incarnation, albeit on a 1-8 scale, rather than a 1-5 scale. Ferran is fine.
Benedict wrote: And since I'm asking anyway, any news when to expect new stuff?
Soon™
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Benedict » 14 May 2017, 02:48

Agamemnon wrote:
Benedict wrote:However that doesn't chagne the fact that the current S&S Skill List has killed Language. Imagine my shock, since Ferran is fluent in 5 languages.

It just slipped off the list? It will be a fuction of Edge/Flaw traits? Something else?
The skill functions almost identically to it's 'Bastards incarnation, albeit on a 1-8 scale, rather than a 1-5 scale. Ferran is fine.
Guess I wasn't clear. In the master Skill list the Language skill is absent. By your response I presume it was accidentally left out and that Language remains a Skill.
Agamemnon wrote:
Benedict wrote:And since I'm asking anyway, any news when to expect new stuff?
Soon™
Fantastic! ©
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Re: Current direction and skills.

Post by Agamemnon » 14 May 2017, 02:56

Benedict wrote:
Agamemnon wrote:
Benedict wrote:However that doesn't chagne the fact that the current S&S Skill List has killed Language. Imagine my shock, since Ferran is fluent in 5 languages.

It just slipped off the list? It will be a fuction of Edge/Flaw traits? Something else?
The skill functions almost identically to it's 'Bastards incarnation, albeit on a 1-8 scale, rather than a 1-5 scale. Ferran is fine.
Guess I wasn't clear. In the master Skill list the Language skill is absent. By your response I presume it was accidentally left out and that Language remains a Skill.
Correct. I read you properly the first time. I was just not my normal thorough self in reply. Tiredness. Busy week.
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