Weapon Stats Game

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Agamemnon
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Weapon Stats Game

Post by Agamemnon » 16 Aug 2017, 14:06

Since people were already doing this a bit, I thought it might be fun to make a thing of it.

Rules of the game:
  1. Post an image of a historical weapon. It can either be an extant original or an accurate replica.
  2. Make it with the relevant codex and then finish it with the weapon ornamentations table if necessary.
  3. Show your work!
For added fun:
  1. Add an extra image for the next person to solve
  2. Solve the image in the post above yours
I'll start, why not:

Ottoman Kilij
Image
  • Single Edged
  • Medium
  • Blade Heavy
  • Curved
2c/-1p, Medium. Curved. r3
+1r Decorative engravings
+3r Gold trimming
r7 total.

For the next person, a 16th century italian short sword:
Image
Sword and Scoundrel: On Role-Playing and Fantasy Obscura

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what’s incomplete and saying: "Now it’s complete because it’s ended here."
Collected Sayings of Muad’Dib, the Princess Irulan
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Benedict
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by Benedict » 16 Aug 2017, 17:26

Agamemnon wrote:Image
I have been in this museum. :D

It reads "Pala (heavy sword) of Ioannis Guras".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

16th century italian short sword:
Image
Base Cost r2
  • Double Edged 0c/1p
  • Short
  • Blade Heavy
  • Compound Hilt
1c/1p, Short. Compound Hilt. r4
Decorated with semi-precious stones; Minor gilding: +4r
Sculpted guard and pommel: +1r
r9 total.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For the next person, 17th century Indian Persian martial ax:
Image
"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."
― Touchstone
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thirtythr33
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by thirtythr33 » 17 Aug 2017, 02:34

Benedict wrote:16th century italian short sword:
Blade Heavy
Am I the one who's gone crazy? How on earth are you and Agamemnon calling things like this Blade Heavy?
Benedict wrote:17th century Indian Persian martial ax
  • Spear Head
  • Axe Head
  • Medium
  • Hefty
4c/2p Medium, 2h, Hook r4

And for the next person, a tetsubo (aka kanabo):

Image
"O happy dagger!
This is thy sheath; there rust, and let me die."

- Juliet Capulet
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Benedict
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by Benedict » 23 Aug 2017, 12:25

thirtythr33 wrote:
Benedict wrote:17th century Indian Persian martial ax
4c/2p Medium, 2h, Hook r4
No ornament costs?

thirtythr33 wrote:And for the next person, a tetsubo (aka kanabo)
Base Cost r1; Base DR 0b/0b
  • Head (top): none
  • Head (side): Mace (Cost+1, 1b/0b; Crushing)
  • Long: (+1/+1 DR, 2h)
  • Features
    • Hefty (Cost+1, +1 Swing, -1 Thrust, 2h)
Tetsubo: DR 3b/0b; Reach Long; Cost r3; Notes 2h, Crushing

As for the next person, a mid 16th century decorated sabre:
Image
In case anyone is wondering, that hilt is made of a single piece of coral.
"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."
― Touchstone
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FortPwnall
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by FortPwnall » 08 Sep 2017, 07:25

Benedict wrote: As for the next person, a mid 16th century decorated sabre
In case anyone is wondering, that hilt is made of a single piece of coral.
Basic cost r2

Geometry
Single edged (1c / 0p)

Length
Medium

Taper
Blade-heavy (+1 swing), cost+1

Features
Curved (-1 thrust)

Decorations
Noble x3 (cost +4) Made with exotic material (coral), sculpted grip and pommel, Minor gold trimming

Final
Sabre; DR 2c/-1p; Medium reach; Cost r7; Curved


Alright, for the next person, German Landsknechte Flamberge Sword (I am still a newb as far as knowledge of historical weaponry is concerned. I don't know how historically accurate this is, but the site I got it from claims that it is)

https://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p- ... word.aspx?

Image
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EinBein
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by EinBein » 08 Sep 2017, 10:21

FortPwnall wrote:Alright, for the next person, German Landsknechte Flamberge Sword (I am still a newb as far as knowledge of historical weaponry is concerned. I don't know how historically accurate this is, but the site I got it from claims that it is)

https://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p- ... word.aspx?

Image
That's mine!
  • Bladed weapon (Base Cost r2)
  • Geometry: Double Edged (0c/1p)
  • Length: Extended (+2 swing, 2h, Cost +2, uses Longswords)
  • Taper: Severe Taper (+1 thrust, Cost +1)
  • Feature: Wave (weapon gains Wave trait - like "weapon increases Draw Cut damage bonus from +1DR to +2DR"?)
  • Hilt Upgrades: None
  • Wealthy Customizations: Sculptural elements (Cost +1)
Flamberge: 2c/2p, Ext, r6, 2h

Maybe Cost +1 for Wave. Maybe entirely different features for this. Agamemnon promised to include this feature in a future revision.


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FortPwnall
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by FortPwnall » 08 Sep 2017, 10:40

EinBein wrote: That's mine!
Do you mean yours for making stats in this game, or yours as in you actually own a replica?
EinBein wrote: Feature: Wave (weapon gains Wave trait - like "weapon increases Draw Cut damage bonus from +1DR to +2DR"?)

Maybe Cost +1 for Wave. Maybe entirely different features for this. Agamemnon promised to include this feature in a future revision.
Hmmm... I'm looking at this further. Wikipedia says:
When parrying with such a sword, unpleasant vibrations may be transmitted into the attacker's blade. These vibrations cause the blades to slow contact with each other because additional friction is encountered with each wave.
Thearma.org http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm#.WbKpcdFLeUk says
The wave-blade form is visually striking but really no more effective in its cutting than a straight one.
Various Reddit threads, and thearma threads have people with very different opinions as to what the blade was for and whether it actually increases cut damage. https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comment ... ntages_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comment ... wordswavy/ http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... bKpidFLeUk

The arma thread includes speculation that the shape was intended for decreasing drag!

It seems that this is a feature that would need to be more carefully researched first before one could really say what advantages or disadvantages it would give.

At the very least, it is accepted that the sword would be harder to make. The safest rule (for the moment?) would probably be to just consider it an expensive aesthetic modification, until actual advantage can be determined.
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thirtythr33
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by thirtythr33 » 08 Sep 2017, 11:24

That looks like a Großes Messer to me.

Bladed weapon. r2
Single Edged. 1/0
Medium Length.
Blade Heavy. 2/0 r3
Bastard Hilt.

2c / 0p Medium 1.5h r3

For the next person:
Image
FortPwnall wrote:Do you mean yours for making stats in this game, or yours as in you actually own a replica?
His character Gregor is using a Flamberge in our ongoing game The Floating City on the forums here.
FortPwnall wrote:At the very least, it is accepted that the sword would be harder to make. The safest rule (for the moment?) would probably be to just consider it an expensive aesthetic modification, until actual advantage can be determined.
It could certainly be +1 cost.

Where I can see it making the most difference in is prolonged blade contact. It will prevent the enemies weapon from running down your blade, either giving you more hand protection or otherwise giving you more control of the interaction. That means it should somehow interact with either the Parry or Wind maneuvers.

I would probably give it -1AC cost to Wind.
"O happy dagger!
This is thy sheath; there rust, and let me die."

- Juliet Capulet
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EinBein
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by EinBein » 08 Sep 2017, 13:05

But in any case: were Flamberges (the big two handed ones) really made for single combat? So would it make sense to give such a weapon an advantage in duel situations?
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thirtythr33
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by thirtythr33 » 08 Sep 2017, 13:52

They were (like zweihanders) purportedly used to knock aside polearms in a pike-block. That could reasonable be interpreted as either a parry or a wind.
"O happy dagger!
This is thy sheath; there rust, and let me die."

- Juliet Capulet
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Agamemnon
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by Agamemnon » 08 Sep 2017, 15:54

FortPwnall wrote:Hmmm... I'm looking at this further. Wikipedia says:
When parrying with such a sword, unpleasant vibrations may be transmitted into the attacker's blade. These vibrations cause the blades to slow contact with each other because additional friction is encountered with each wave.
Thearma.org http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm#.WbKpcdFLeUk says
The wave-blade form is visually striking but really no more effective in its cutting than a straight one.
Various Reddit threads, and thearma threads have people with very different opinions as to what the blade was for and whether it actually increases cut damage. https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comment ... ntages_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comment ... wordswavy/ http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... bKpidFLeUk

The arma thread includes speculation that the shape was intended for decreasing drag!

It seems that this is a feature that would need to be more carefully researched first before one could really say what advantages or disadvantages it would give.

At the very least, it is accepted that the sword would be harder to make. The safest rule (for the moment?) would probably be to just consider it an expensive aesthetic modification, until actual advantage can be determined.
You've found a lot of the same stuff we did. I have some notes and ideas, but I'm holding them back for that very reason. I've been trying to find people who can actually speak to the thing with authority. Even our usual sources (Norwood, Warzecha, Lloyd) come up dry on this one. Easton keeps saying he'll make a video on it, but he hasn't gotten around to it yet, unfortunately.
EinBein wrote:But in any case: were Flamberges (the big two handed ones) really made for single combat? So would it make sense to give such a weapon an advantage in duel situations?
These swords are actually quite hard to pin down. The common explanation is that they were often used for pike blocks, which I'm sure is true to some degree.. but the specifics are occasionally suspect. The idea that they chop off the heads of pikes is almost certainly apocryphal. Even if that could occasionally happen, that certainly wouldn't have been the primary purpose. Even with a blade that large, chopping into and through something as thick as a pike shaft that was being held by a person (and thus, would give on impact) is incredibly difficult if it's possible at all. Even if you succeeded, unless you cut the pike at a precise 90 degree angle to the shaft you've succeeded only in being skewered with a sharp bit of wood instead of a sharp bit of metal.. and that's if we're ignoring the fact that there are numerous other pike heads pointed at you simultaneously.

On the other hand, if we also have a quite similar sword called a montanto that has a number of surviving treatises on its use. We know these were used in single combat, but most information I've found on them actually puts them in the unusual position of a melee point-defense weapon, often with the context of guarding a hallway, doorway, or a specific person behind you. It's really interesting stuff.

Also:

Image
Sword and Scoundrel: On Role-Playing and Fantasy Obscura

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what’s incomplete and saying: "Now it’s complete because it’s ended here."
Collected Sayings of Muad’Dib, the Princess Irulan
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higgins
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by higgins » 09 Sep 2017, 02:53

FortPwnall wrote:Hmmm... I'm looking at this further. Wikipedia says:
When parrying with such a sword, unpleasant vibrations may be transmitted into the attacker's blade. These vibrations cause the blades to slow contact with each other because additional friction is encountered with each wave.
This wiki paragraph seems to have been written by a person with no concept of the fact that sharp blades will "stick" to each other when contacting edge to edge. In fact, this is why some of the techniques in the treatises don't seem to work when trying them out with blunts. Blackfencer has done a lot of good work for HEMA to be able to experience that with his sharp simulators, which coincidentally look like flamberges at a distance: http://www.blackfencer.com/en/10-sharp-simulator-line But since so few people ever fence with sharps, and since flamberges are horrendously expensive (I'm not even sure if quality sharps are available at all), I guess we won't get to know any time soon whether the wavy blade has anything to do with additional blade stickiness, or in adverse, the lack of it thereof.
"You can never have too many knives."
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Benedict
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by Benedict » 09 Sep 2017, 04:29

Wavy blades. Hrmph. Now that is a bitch, ain't it?



youtu.be/BB6rillKnCE
Skip directly to 2:18-7:03 where he talks about wavy blades. Or watch the whole thing, it has tons of useful information.

Anyway, I have to say I totally agree with Matt's three points in the video. Not only it makes perfect sense from a mechanical point of view, its quite close to what I've learned through training.

No, I don't own a wavy sword or knife. Neither have I ever handled any. But.


I have been training with Chinese weapons for quite some time. There are especially two polearms of note when flame-pattern blades are concerned.

The first is the shé máo qiāng ( 蛇矛枪 : literally "snake tongue spear"):
Image

The second is the fāng tiān jǐ ( 方天戟 : literally "square sky halberd"):
Image

Having trained extensively with both, I know for a fact that these two babies have an extensive array of pulling straight slashes (for lack of a better term; essentially a backward thrust slicing the target with the wavy edge) in their respective curriculum, which are quite different from the standard qiang (spear) techniques.


We also have some interesting info coming from the Romans. The ancient writer Polybius described that the Celts used spears and javelins with wavy and rippled blades which not only penetrated, but tore the flesh as they were used. Numerous spears that fit this description have been found across Continental Europe and in Britain, including several at the site of La Tène.

Image
Source

We also have wave-pattern curved swords from Persia and India:
Image

Finally we have the existence of wavy bladed European Renaissance polearms along with swords:
Image

With all these in mind I tend to form the opinion that a wavy blade should cut better than a straight blade against light (non-metal and/or non-rigid) armor without loosing their ability to thrust like curved swords do. It also should have a bigger cost (+2 or even +3). As for maintenance, maybe double all costs associated?
thirtythr33 wrote:For the next person:
Image
Nice longswords. :D

Each would be:
  • Longsword
  • Base: Cost r2
  • Double-edged : 0c/1p
  • Reach: Long ; Cost+1, Uses Swords
  • Tapper: Blade Heavy ; Swing+1, Cost+1
  • Hilt Upgrades
    • Bastard: Gains 1.5h
    • Compound Hilt: Cost+1, gains Compound Hilt
    Wealthy Customizations: Cost+2
  • Minor sculptural elements in hilt
  • Minor etching of blade
  • Mirror polish

    1h DR +1c/+1p ; 2h DR +2c/+2p ; Reach Long ; Cost r7 ; 1.5h ; Compound Hilt ; Uses Sword and/or Longsword
And
Agamemnon wrote:Also:
Image
These are two swords. :lol:
  • Greatsword/Montante (?)
  • Base: Cost r2
  • Double-edged : 0c/1p
  • Reach: Extended ; Cost+2, Gains Swing+2, Gains 2h, Uses Longswords
  • Tapper: Blade Heavy ; Swing+1, Cost+1

    Wealthy Noble Customizations: Cost+7
  • Every surface of the weapon is engraved or sculpted in intricate patterns
  • Major gold trimming, gilding, or inlays covering up to 75% of the weapon

    DR +3c/+1p ; Reach Extended ; Cost r12 ; 2h ; Uses Longsword
  • Tuck (?)
  • Base: Cost r2
  • Double-edged : 0c/1p
  • Reach: Medium; Uses Swords
  • Tapper: Severe Tapper ; Thrust+1, Cost+1
  • Features: Tuck ; Swing-1, Maille Piercing

    Wealthy Customizations: Cost+1
  • Mirror Polish

    Noble Customizations: Cost+4
  • Decorated with semi-precious stones
  • Gilded

    DR -1c/+2p ; Reach Medium ; Cost r8 ; Maille Piercing ; Uses Sword

For the next person:
Image
Image
"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."
― Touchstone
KillerRed
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Re: Weapon Stats Game

Post by KillerRed » 12 Sep 2017, 10:58

Benedict wrote:Wavy blades. Hrmph. Now that is a bitch, ain't it?


For the next person:
Image
Image
Inlayed Wheellock Pistol
Base cost: R2
Pistol
Wheellock: +1 cost
Wealthy customization:
Cost: +1 mirror finish
Noble customization:
Cost: +3 inlays covering 25% or more

DR 3p; Range short/close; RLD 2; cost r7; 1hand, Wheellock, penetrating

Someone please check my work.

Next:
Image
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