Positioning Rolls

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Benedict
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Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 11 Sep 2016, 11:28

Got a question regarding positioning rolls and narrative effect with a specific example in mind.

Got my opponent knocked down with a trip maneuver during the 2nd Tempo. Next Phrase the opponent declares that he favors his Head wheel, then attempts to get up with a Positioning roll. I chose to oppose his Positioning roll and beat him with a MoS2. The question is this. Instead of preventing him from getting up, can I instead target his favored Wheel?

And a second question that comes to mind. If the trip occurred in the 1st Tempo, could he attempt a Positioning roll to get up? Or he must spend the 2nd Tempo defending/fighting prone, then attempt to get up on the next Phrase?
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Korbel » 11 Sep 2016, 14:34

I'll add my question. Please clarify, who declares his allocation of dice to positioning first? I believe it should always be the person who wants to change the status quo, right? And in case of one vs many, this is always the outnumbered fighter, as he wants to change the fact that he must face many opponents?
Please spare me if it was answered somewhere else, I can't find.
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Benedict
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 11 Sep 2016, 14:42

Korbel wrote:I'll add my question. Please clarify, who declares his allocation of dice to positioning first? I believe it should always be the person who wants to change the status quo, right? And in case of one vs many, this is always the outnumbered fighter, as he wants to change the fact that he must face many opponents?
Please spare me if it was answered somewhere else, I can't find.

If not mistaken in 1v1 it occurs simultaneously.

In 1 v many I think that Higgins somewhere said that many declare first, then the single combatant. But could be wrong.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby EinBein » 12 Sep 2016, 08:03

Korbel wrote:I'll add my question. Please clarify, who declares his allocation of dice to positioning first? I believe it should always be the person who wants to change the status quo, right? And in case of one vs many, this is always the outnumbered fighter, as he wants to change the fact that he must face many opponents?
Please spare me if it was answered somewhere else, I can't find.

higgins wrote:
Glidias wrote:3. When Positioning against multiple opponents, the outnumbered character declares his Positioning Roll first or the outnumbering party? Or is there an alternative way to do it simultaneously where everyone hides a number in a cup representing the number of dice he wishes to commit for Positioning, and simultaneously revealing it?

Good question. We've currently been handling it via initiative, but I'm leaning towards outnumbering party declaring first. Simultaneous reveal would be too random and I've noticed that when run that the lone party declares first, it's a bigger gamble for him than I would like. And also it makes sort of sense for the larger party to coordinate first, give each other some direction and then the lone party reacts. Happy to debate this though.

I don't know the answers to your questions, Benedict. Have to dig into the rules more to answer them...
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby EinBein » 12 Sep 2016, 08:49

Benedict wrote:Got my opponent knocked down with a trip maneuver during the 2nd Tempo. Next Phrase the opponent declares that he favors his Head wheel, then attempts to get up with a Positioning roll. I chose to oppose his Positioning roll and beat him with a MoS2. The question is this. Instead of preventing him from getting up, can I instead target his favored Wheel?

According to RAW, I'd say no, as you just "defended" against the opponents attempt to get up from prone. As a GM I might allow trading MoS in a 2:1 proportion if this fits the scene.
Benedict wrote:And a second question that comes to mind. If the trip occurred in the 1st Tempo, could he attempt a Positioning roll to get up? Or he must spend the 2nd Tempo defending/fighting prone, then attempt to get up on the next Phrase?

Mh. As per RAW, the Positioning rolls only happen once per Phrase. Maybe higgins can lighten up the matter.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 12 Sep 2016, 09:06

EinBein wrote:
Benedict wrote:Got my opponent knocked down with a trip maneuver during the 2nd Tempo. Next Phrase the opponent declares that he favors his Head wheel, then attempts to get up with a Positioning roll. I chose to oppose his Positioning roll and beat him with a MoS2. The question is this. Instead of preventing him from getting up, can I instead target his favored Wheel?

According to RAW, I'd say no, as you just "defended" against the opponents attempt to get up from prone. As a GM I might allow trading MoS in a 2:1 proportion if this fits the scene.

pg 106: The positioning roll can also be used to gain an upper hand on your opponent using the environment. Doing so requires the player to narrate which aspect of the environment they are using and then to succeed on their positioning roll. Classic examples would include throwing sand in someone’s face, overturning a table to create an obstruction, using footwork to gain higher ground or forcing an opponent into a corner. Regardless of who initiated the positioning roll, the winner gains the following based on their MoS:

MoS1 - Gain a limited narrative effect during this phrase, such as targeting a wound wheel not normally available.
MoS2 - Gain an advantage or impose a disadvantage on your opponent for the next maneuver, in addition to the limited narrative effect.
MoS3 - Gain an advantage or impose a disadvantage on your opponent until they can beat you on a positioning roll (in addition to the limited narrative effect).

It's a matter of interpretation. According to RAW (Regardless of who initiated the positioning roll, the winner gains the following based on their MoS) I believe the winner chooses the narrative effect. Its not a direct attacker/defender situation, just opposed actions. Yes, the minor narrative effect for the standing guy could be that he keeps his foe down. It could also mean that by the time the fallen one gets up the standing guy maneuvers to a position where he can target that head. But I could be wrong. That's why I ask, I believe some clarification is required.

EinBein wrote:
Benedict wrote:And a second question that comes to mind. If the trip occurred in the 1st Tempo, could he attempt a Positioning roll to get up? Or he must spend the 2nd Tempo defending/fighting prone, then attempt to get up on the next Phrase?

Mh. As per RAW, the Positioning rolls only happen once per Phrase. Maybe higgins can lighten up the matter.

My thoughts exactly, and I believe that most probably the downed guy must defend/attack from prone during the 2nd tempo. Just couldn't resist to ask. :)
Last edited by Benedict on 12 Sep 2016, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby higgins » 12 Sep 2016, 14:39

Benedict wrote:Got my opponent knocked down with a trip maneuver during the 2nd Tempo. Next Phrase the opponent declares that he favors his Head wheel, then attempts to get up with a Positioning roll. I chose to oppose his Positioning roll and beat him with a MoS2. The question is this. Instead of preventing him from getting up, can I instead target his favored Wheel?

Sure you can. Not all positioning rolls are directly opposed. Say, one character is prone and wants to get up, while his opponent wants to draw a new weapon. Both roll positioning but their actions aren't opposed and both can succeed individually.

So, in your situation, you COULD choose to oppose him and not allow him get up, or you could choose NOT to oppose him (leaving him getting up on his own merit) and instead position for effect to aim for his favored wheel.

Benedict wrote:And a second question that comes to mind. If the trip occurred in the 1st Tempo, could he attempt a Positioning roll to get up? Or he must spend the 2nd Tempo defending/fighting prone, then attempt to get up on the next Phrase?

Latter.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 12 Sep 2016, 14:51

higgins wrote:
Benedict wrote:Got my opponent knocked down with a trip maneuver during the 2nd Tempo. Next Phrase the opponent declares that he favors his Head wheel, then attempts to get up with a Positioning roll. I chose to oppose his Positioning roll and beat him with a MoS2. The question is this. Instead of preventing him from getting up, can I instead target his favored Wheel?

Sure you can. Not all positioning rolls are directly opposed. Say, one character is prone and wants to get up, while his opponent wants to draw a new weapon. Both roll positioning but their actions aren't opposed and both can succeed individually.

So, in your situation, you COULD choose to oppose him and not allow him get up, or you could choose NOT to oppose him (leaving him getting up on his own merit) and instead position for effect to aim for his favored wheel.


To clarify, in order to target his head I ignore his own attempt to get up and declare a positioning of my own to target his favored wheel. That means that he rolls vs basic TN and if he fails he remains prone, and I roll vs basic TN to target the head, correct? Tripping the opponent is sooo deadly, really like the way its implemented. :twisted:
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby higgins » 12 Sep 2016, 14:59

Benedict wrote:To clarify, in order to target his head I ignore his own attempt to get up and declare a positioning of my own to target his favored wheel. That means that he rolls vs basic TN and if he fails he remains prone, and I roll vs basic TN to target the head, correct? Tripping the opponent is sooo deadly, really like the way its implemented. :twisted:

Yes, but prone makes him disadvantaged, so, he rolls disadvantaged, not vs base TN. If he succeeds getting up, he can immediately defend with base TN again.

To make it more clear. This is both of you going for ONE (and only one) effect that isn't opposed as per "other effects" section. If both of you succeed, you get what you want. He gets up, BUT you've maneuvered yourself into a position that leaves his head vulnerable.

Since these ain't opposed rolls, the positioning effect MoS table does NOT come into this.

I guess we should make it more clear, but we can't make all positioning rolls strictly opposed, or me successfully drawing a dagger would mean that you're unable to get up... or vice versa, which is silly.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 12 Sep 2016, 15:11

higgins wrote:Since these ain't opposed rolls, the positioning effect MoS table does NOT come into this.

I guess we should make it more clear, but we can't make all positioning rolls strictly opposed, or me successfully drawing a dagger would mean that you're unable to get up... or vice versa, which is silly.


I believe it can come into play, at least in this situation where positioning rolls are not directly opposed per se, but degree of success can influence the outcome. I'll elaborate with an example. Since we are both rolling against a fixed target number him TN7 because he's disadvantaged, me against TN6. Isn't it simple to just count successes and compare for MoS? For example he gets 3 successes and me 1. For me I get my maneuver to where I can hit the head. For him he gets up, plus he either disadvantages my upcoming swing to the head, or he has advantage on his defense vs my attack. Or is my logic wrong?
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby higgins » 12 Sep 2016, 15:22

Benedict wrote:I believe it can come into play, at least in this situation where positioning rolls are not directly opposed per se, but degree of success can influence the outcome. I'll elaborate with an example. Since we are both rolling against a fixed target number him TN7 because he's disadvantaged, me against TN6. Isn't it simple to just count successes and compare for MoS? For example he gets 3 successes and me 1. For me I get my maneuver to where I can hit the head. For him he gets up, plus he either disadvantages my upcoming swing to the head, or he has advantage on his defense vs my attack. Or is my logic wrong?

I can see the sense in it and I even thought about it, but allowing the losing party (MoS-wise) to still gain access to a limited narrative effect sounds like a massive can of worms, since basically every loser of a positioning roll would get one.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 12 Sep 2016, 15:28

higgins wrote:I can see the sense in it and I even thought about it, but allowing the losing party (MoS-wise) to still gain access to a limited narrative effect sounds like a massive can of worms, since basically every loser of a positioning roll would get one.

His narrative effect is clear, he got up, what he was trying to do in the first place. My narrative effect is targeting his head. If he did it better by me (more successes on his positioning) he can defend better since he did manage to get up more swiftly than I expected/managed to assume a better defending posture, etc. And if I did beat him on successes I have an even better angle for hitting him. Since those two narrative effects are not opposing one another success means each get his wish. But since its in the middle of combat where everything counts MoS could can in to display who has the advantage.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby higgins » 12 Sep 2016, 15:38

Benedict wrote:His narrative effect is clear, he got up, what he was trying to do in the first place. My narrative effect is targeting his head. If he did it better by me (more successes on his positioning) he can defend better since he did manage to get up more swiftly than I expected/managed to assume a better defending posture, etc. And if I did beat him on successes I have an even better angle for hitting him. Since those two narrative effects are not opposing one another success means each get his wish. But since its in the middle of combat where everything counts MoS could can in to display who has the advantage.

I see your point, but the current MoS table doesn't allow for asymmetrical narrative outcomes, whereas the "other effects" section does (or at least should). We'll need to clarify this section anyway, so, we'll see what we can do about it.
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Re: Positioning Rolls

Postby Benedict » 12 Sep 2016, 15:44

higgins wrote:
Benedict wrote:His narrative effect is clear, he got up, what he was trying to do in the first place. My narrative effect is targeting his head. If he did it better by me (more successes on his positioning) he can defend better since he did manage to get up more swiftly than I expected/managed to assume a better defending posture, etc. And if I did beat him on successes I have an even better angle for hitting him. Since those two narrative effects are not opposing one another success means each get his wish. But since its in the middle of combat where everything counts MoS could can in to display who has the advantage.

I see your point, but the current MoS table doesn't allow for asymmetrical narrative outcomes, whereas the "other effects" section does (or at least should). We'll need to clarify this section anyway, so, we'll see what we can do about it.

Thanks! I believe that a side bar or a note that narrative effects can simultaneously occur when not directly opposed (as explained above) would do the trick. :)
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