Counter

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Marras
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Counter

Postby Marras » 20 Oct 2016, 04:15

I have been reading more about the maneuvers and it occurred to me that in counter augmentation it said that it's effects come to play at the next tempo. So, if my character happened to use this in first phrase, what would happen? Would the effect be wasted, on hold for next tempo (is my character is able to act after second phrase) or does it change the character from defender into attacker at the second phrase?

It might have been already discussed somewhere but I can't find it now.
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thirtythr33
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Re: Counter

Postby thirtythr33 » 20 Oct 2016, 05:10

I think you might have tempo and phrase confused with one another.

In Phrase 1 you establish dice pools.
You clash in Tempo 1.
You clash in Tempo 2.
Then you go to Phrase 2 and establish dice pools, and repeat.

In the case of counter, it gives you the bonus dice in the next Tempo, whether or not it is in the same Phrase.
If you successfully countered in Phrase 1 Tempo 1, you would get to use the bonus dice in Phrase 1 Tempo 2.
If you successfully countered in Phrase 1 Tempo 2, you would get to use the bonus dice in Phrase 2 Tempo 1.
"O happy dagger!
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Marras
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Re: Counter

Postby Marras » 20 Oct 2016, 05:14

Thanks! It really seems like I got the terms mixed up again :oops:

I fell to this same mistake just yesterday in a Roll20 fight in Korbel's game. Looks like old dog like me don't learn new terms that easily any more...
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Benedict
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Re: Counter

Postby Benedict » 20 Oct 2016, 05:18

Let's say both your CP is 14. Counter is a Parry augmentation that costs 2.


1st Phrase: You roll White opponent throws Red. Both are using equal weapons (no reach control).
1st Tempo: He declares a 6 dice Swing to your head and you declare an 8 dice Counter. He scores 4 successes you score 5 successes. You parry successfully his attack and take Initiative.
2nd Tempo: His remaining CP is 14 -6 (swing) = 8 dice.
Your remaining CP is 14 -10 (counter) +4 (his successes) = 8 dice, and you are limited to Swing, Thrust, or Grab (and any of their augmentations thereof) for that tempo.
You declare an 8 dice Swing to Head as well. He declares a 6 dice counter. You score 3 successes he scores 4 successes.

2nd Phrase: You refresh CP. You get 14 CP. He gets 14 + 3 (your successes from previous Swing) = 17 CP total.

And so on.

PS Ninja'd by thirty33 :lol:
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Marras
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Re: Counter

Postby Marras » 20 Oct 2016, 05:54

Thanks Benedict!

I think I got it now.

Slowly I am beginning to get this system (I think). The TRoS was too intimidating so I never fully delved into it and I was (still am a bit) a bit cautious how 'Bastards will work out for me. Frankly this amazing community and these excellent forum games have been crucial for me to understand this pretty unique system.
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thirtythr33
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Re: Counter

Postby thirtythr33 » 20 Oct 2016, 06:03

Here is a quick summary:

Round > Sequence > Phrase > Tempo > Initiative

Round
  • Approx 15-20 seconds long
  • May be an unlimited number of them in a Skirmish
  • Each consists of exactly 10 Sequences, but nothing happans in some of them
  • You refill your RANGED combat pool each Round

Sequence
  • Determined by rolling a d6 or d10
  • Resolved from 1 to 10
  • If in Melee combat ONLY, each will consist of UP TO 3 phrases

Phrase
  • You refill your MELEE combat pool each Phrase
  • Perform any Positioning Rolls
  • Each Phrase contains exactly 2 Tempos

Tempo
  • Each tempo consists each combatant selecting 1 Maneuver
  • If the Maneuvers selected are NOT an opposed roll (ie, both attack), they are resolved in order of Initiative

Initiative
  • Attackers and Defenders are determined in a variety of ways
  • In 1 vs Many situations it isn't clear what order the Many side must resolve their rolls in

Looking at it all written out, it is kind of the most convoluted turn structure I have ever seen. Thankfully only Sequence really needs to be tracked carefully.

Also, I don't actually know what happens if you have depleted your dicepool in a phrase and then are required to use more dice in a later sequence of the same round. For example, if someone threw a javelin into my melee after I had already fought that round. Do I use my full pool I established that Round, or am I all out?
"O happy dagger!
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ChaosFarseer
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Re: Counter

Postby ChaosFarseer » 20 Oct 2016, 11:31

Er, I think the sequence is the order in which actions are resolved in a round, rather than a unit of time of its own. Each round, everyone gets one action with the ordering determined by the sequence.

I'm being nitpicky because if there were ten sequences per round, a ranged character would have to divide their combat pool between those ten sequences (since it refills at the start of a round). Which would be bad.

(Otherwise, hi! I've been lurking around for a while, and the discussions here have been cool to follow. And the Skirmish rules turned out to be much simpler than expected.)
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Benedict
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Re: Counter

Postby Benedict » 20 Oct 2016, 12:03

thirtythr33 wrote:Initiative
  • Attackers and Defenders are determined in a variety of ways
  • In 1 vs Many situations it isn't clear what order the Many side must resolve their rolls in

Not explicitly stated, but I believe that the Many side resolve their rolls by # of successes on the positioning roll.

thirty33 wrote:Also, I don't actually know what happens if you have depleted your dicepool in a phrase and then are required to use more dice in a later sequence of the same round. For example, if someone threw a javelin into my melee after I had already fought that round. Do I use my full pool I established that Round, or am I all out?

If its on a later sequence I guess your CP refreshes.

Do note a single sequence can be 3 phrases long. I believe that if I aimed with my crossbow at the guy battling my buddy, and then the villain beats him on the 2nd phrase 2nd tempo I could unleash my bolt of buddy-aiding at the villain's exposed (zero CP) flank. :twisted:
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thirtythr33
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Re: Counter

Postby thirtythr33 » 20 Oct 2016, 12:57

ChaosFarseer wrote:Er, I think the sequence is the order in which actions are resolved in a round, rather than a unit of time of its own. Each round, everyone gets one action with the ordering determined by the sequence.

I'm being nitpicky because if there were ten sequences per round, a ranged character would have to divide their combat pool between those ten sequences (since it refills at the start of a round). Which would be bad.

(Otherwise, hi! I've been lurking around for a while, and the discussions here have been cool to follow. And the Skirmish rules turned out to be much simpler than expected.)


Welcome to the board!

Your right, I was mostly putting it that way to illustrate that there could be up to 30 phrases in a given round. On a side note, I think a ranged character CAN divide their combat pool between Sequences using Lay Ambush if their weapon has Instant reload. I can't see why you wouldn't be allowed to use half your pool on the first person who steps into your kill zone and the second half on a different person who follows later in the round.
"O happy dagger!
This is thy sheath; there rust, and let me die."

- Juliet Capulet
ChaosFarseer
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Re: Counter

Postby ChaosFarseer » 20 Oct 2016, 15:21

Oh, by 10 sequences, you're referring to the 'initiative' values of 1 thru 10, not giving each character ten actions before their ranged combat pools refresh. My bad!
thirtythr33 wrote:On a side note, I think a ranged character CAN divide their combat pool between Sequences using Lay Ambush if their weapon has Instant reload. I can't see why you wouldn't be allowed to use half your pool on the first person who steps into your kill zone and the second half on a different person who follows later in the round.
Hm, the chapter doesn't mention if Lay Ambush ends after attacking, so you can keep ambushing between rounds until you decide to do something else. It'll be interesting to see how that turns out in combats.
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higgins
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Re: Counter

Postby higgins » 21 Oct 2016, 11:29

thirtythr33 wrote:Looking at it all written out, it is kind of the most convoluted turn structure I have ever seen. Thankfully only Sequence really needs to be tracked carefully.

That's hard to argue with :lol: It's the divided dice pool that causes this.

Also, TROS was essentially the same, except didn't provide any meaningful organization method for what we call skirmish level.

thirtythr33 wrote:Also, I don't actually know what happens if you have depleted your dicepool in a phrase and then are required to use more dice in a later sequence of the same round. For example, if someone threw a javelin into my melee after I had already fought that round. Do I use my full pool I established that Round, or am I all out?

To be honest this situation didn't come up in testing, but our intention isn't for the character to be petrified after he's been engaged in melee once already. So, you use your full pool.

Benedict wrote:Do note a single sequence can be 3 phrases long. I believe that if I aimed with my crossbow at the guy battling my buddy, and then the villain beats him on the 2nd phrase 2nd tempo I could unleash my bolt of buddy-aiding at the villain's exposed (zero CP) flank. :twisted:

Your example is vague on whether your buddy's fight sequence ended and you're next, or are you burning SAs for In the Nick of Time to intefere... But anyway, since you're using a crossbow, the villain's CP won't matter anyway. If you'd throw something at him, he'd get a refresh as normal provided he's aware of you (not an ambush on your part).

thirtythr33 wrote:I can't see why you wouldn't be allowed to use half your pool on the first person who steps into your kill zone and the second half on a different person who follows later in the round.

Perfectly valid.
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