Star Wars

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hector
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Star Wars

Post by hector » 04 Dec 2013, 07:02

Yeah, I know, the game isn't even released for play testing yet, and I'm already talking about Star Wars. It was inevitable, I suppose... Still, a couple of things came to mind regarding the setting in terms of edges, flaws and equipment. The Forms would likely be separate Proficiencies, with varying costs and bonuses for certain manoeuvres. Why that? Because it suits the feel for lightsaber combat shown in the EU, with some styles better than others at defence, offence, counter attacks and other such things.

Edge (Major): Force Sensitive - you can use the Force. This is a major edge just because of how incredibly rare it is. This must be taken on character creation, and one of your SAs is The Force.

Flaw: (Minor/Major): Fallen to the Dark Side - the GM may offer SAs for overtly evil actions when such things might not be in your character's best interests (works as in the Flaws blog).

Lightsaber: MoS damage; ignores armour and stamina (with certain exceptions). May parry energy and ranged weapons.

Force Imbued Weapon: Damage as exceptional quality base weapon. May parry energy and ranged weapons.

Ranged Counters count as deflecting the bolt back at an enemy.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 05 Dec 2013, 07:03

hector wrote:It was inevitable, I suppose...
Apparently. :lol:
hector wrote:Lightsaber: MoS damage; ignores armour and stamina (with certain exceptions).
That's an interesting take. So, in your view lightsabers would ignore user's Strength as well?
hector wrote:May parry energy and ranged weapons.
I'm not a Star Wars expert by any stretch of the imagination, but do we really see any jedi failing to deflect blaster bolts in the films? Sure, there was a bunch that died in ep3 betrayal, but... other than being unaware? Except that one padawan that was gunned down? All gamers seem to want to make it a roll or a defense bonus, but judging from the movies, it seems almost like an infallible passive ability. Especially in the prequels.

P.S. I edited your original post to fix a terminology issue -- Stamina is the attribute that affects wound levels in SoS. ;)
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hector
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Re: Star Wars

Post by hector » 05 Dec 2013, 08:17

higgins wrote:That's an interesting take. So, in your view lightsabers would ignore user's Strength as well?
Yes indeed. You have a blade that can cut through damn near anything. Someone with Strength 1 could quite easily chop someone in half length ways with one, if that person isn't trying to move out of the way. Also, since it ignores Stamina and Armour, it allows for very minor wounds as well as instant kills.

That being said, Strength may apply to trying to knock an opponent's blade out of position to open them up for a followup attack; seems like Strength would apply to something like that anyway, and that seems to be the main use for powerful swings.
I'm not a Star Wars expert by any stretch of the imagination, but do we really see any jedi failing to deflect blaster bolts in the films? Sure, there was a bunch that died in ep3 betrayal, but... other than being unaware? Except that one padawan that was gunned down? All gamers seem to want to make it a roll or a defense bonus, but judging from the movies, it seems almost like an infallible passive ability. Especially in the prequels.
But how many years have all of these Jedi been training for? They'd all have a really, really high proficiency, and rather high Reflexes from being Jedi. Besides, you see almost all melee attacks getting parried too. I would have parrying ranged attacks with a lightsaber work exactly the same as parrying a melee attack, and use the Counter manoeuvre for "return to sender". Unless the person you're parrying against is an excellent shot, you'll probably succeed. Besides, remember Jango Fett shooting that Jedi in the battle of Geonosis...

As for the inevitability, it was either this or Dune.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 05 Dec 2013, 18:27

hector wrote:That being said, Strength may apply to trying to knock an opponent's blade out of position to open them up for a followup attack; seems like Strength would apply to something like that anyway, and that seems to be the main use for powerful swings.
Sounds a lot like Expulsion, but we don't take Strength into account there. :)
hector wrote:I would have parrying ranged attacks with a lightsaber work exactly the same as parrying a melee attack, and use the Counter manoeuvre for "return to sender".
Ah, well, yes. I guess I haven't put up our ranged combat teaser yet. :P In short though, ranged attacks aren't subject to defensive rolls. All the target can do is to move, dive or take cover to increase the shooter's shot Complexity, but if the shooter succeeds his rolls, he connects. This mechanic has completely changed the ranged combat dynamics (as compared to most other RPGs) and all playtesters have loved it so far.

I'm positive we can accommodate the jedi somehow though.
hector wrote:As for the inevitability, it was either this or Dune.
Haha, that's true. I compiled a pretty detailed Dune priority pick table back in the day, but never got around using it. That, and I remember us debating on shield, but I don't think we ever came up with anything solid.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by hector » 06 Dec 2013, 02:00

higgins wrote:Ah, well, yes. I guess I haven't put up our ranged combat teaser yet. :P In short though, ranged attacks aren't subject to defensive rolls. All the target can do is to move, dive or take cover to increase the shooter's shot Complexity, but if the shooter succeeds his rolls, he connects. This mechanic has completely changed the ranged combat dynamics (as compared to most other RPGs) and all playtesters have loved it so far.

I'm positive we can accommodate the jedi somehow though.
Ah, I see. That makes sense when a person can't move faster than the thing coming at them. I think allowing Jedi (or other superhumanly fast targets) to actively defend against ranged attacks would give a better sense of just how very hard to hit they are without making them invulnerable. Against multiple people, they'd have to divide their Combat Pool same as with melee combat, but with their years of training and superhuman reflexes they'd probably be able to handle two or three well aimed shots, or more instinctive shots.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 06 Dec 2013, 04:41

Yes, they should be able to handle quite a bit, but here's a weird thought. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the jedi shun taking cover pretty much fundamentally. That's like... the complete opposite course of action compared to the regular people.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by hector » 06 Dec 2013, 13:57

Jedi don't typically dive for cover when they have a lightsaber to hand because not only do they not need to, but it also prevents them from effectively returning fire. It's the complete opposite to most people, but then most people don't use a purely defensive weapon in a firefight (purely defensive in that you can only use it for ranged attacks while being fired upon).
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 21 Dec 2013, 12:46

Uh, well, duh... We have rules for deflecting thrown weapons. Aragorn style.

Image

This hasn't came up in the testing sessions, so, I had forgotten about it. So, why not just allow the jedi to deflect all projectiles like that?

Edit: Why on Earth is this gif so hypnotic? Image
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Re: Star Wars

Post by hector » 21 Dec 2013, 22:03

That sounds like a pretty good idea. Perhaps make it so that a lightsaber or force imbued weapon can deflect blaster bolts like that, but make it hard enough that only force sensitives can do it effectively?
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 22 Dec 2013, 05:42

As the rules currently stand, it makes no real difference whether one deflects the weapon, or simply dodges it. It's pretty much "color". Here you see Achilles is using the exact same move as Aragorn before:

Image

So, in my view, the jedi would have access to the deflection only. However, if everyone could deflect every ranged weapon, then...

a) effectively, every single character holding a glowing club would have access to "bullet time", which in turn would most likely radically alter the setting feel.

b) also, all capabilities in SoS are determined by dice pool size. So, given equal difficulties, the Force Sensitives would simply need to have larger dice pools compared to everyone else to have an advantage in that task -- I'm not familiar with EU, but from what I've seen in the movies, it seems the jedi-levels of skill can be matched with training even by non Force Sensitive people a'la General Grievous. In short, I'm not just seeing the Force Sensitive priority pick granting a gazillion free close combat Proficiency points.

c) so, the remaining option seems to be giving a lower TN for the Force Sensitive, which is pretty close to what I proposed in the first place.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by hector » 22 Dec 2013, 21:54

A lower TN for force sensitives makes sense - perhaps a TN of 12 or higher for non force sensitives seeking to deflect a blaster shot to reflect how hard it is for a normal person. Then maybe have a deflect back at your opponent that works like the Counter manoeuvre (assuming you still have one) using the same TNs...
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 23 Dec 2013, 07:31

hector wrote:perhaps a TN of 12 or higher for non force sensitives seeking to deflect a blaster shot to reflect how hard it is for a normal person.
By the system default, that difficulty level is impossibility. Han agrees, btw. ;)

There are two types of ranged weapons in Song of Steel:

a) Thrown Weapons, that can be dodged
b) Projectile Weapons, which cannot be dodged

The latter category includes all bows, crossbows and firearms. We make a huge distinction between dashing for cover (useful for everyone) and staying out in the open, attempting to dodge stuff (works only vs thrown weapons and needs substantial CP to be effective).

Or do you see blaster bolt speed belonging to the Thrown Weapon category? I don't remember any non-jedi resisting them in the movies.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by hector » 23 Dec 2013, 18:44

Ah, so the dice don't explode any more? In that case, I'd suggest that it be treated differently for force sensitives than not - make it count as a regular ranged attack against normal people, who don't have the reflexes to dodge or parry them, and give force sensitivity the ability to treat ranged attacks as thrown attacks with a higher TN, and give regular thrown attacks against them a lower TN to avoid. For example, if it defaults at 6, then make it 4 for force sensitives and 8 for blaster shots for force sensitives.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by higgins » 24 Dec 2013, 02:38

hector wrote:Ah, so the dice don't explode any more?
Actually I meant that the system considers people consciously dodging propelled projectiles an impossibility, but what you say is true as well. TN10 is the max.

Otherwise you're spot-on. TN8 is the default for deflecting thrown projectiles, so, that's what the jedi would get for deflecting blaster bolts. I didn't think of lowering thrown weapon deflection TN for the jedi further, but it makes sense.
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Re: Star Wars

Post by Agamemnon » 12 Jan 2014, 03:53

From personal taste, I like the idea that only Force Sensitives can do fancy jedi lightsaber tricks. Anyone else can pick up and use a lightsaber, sure, but deflection isn't a measure of skill with a blade - it's about the level of prescience required to anticipate a shot coming at you faster than the eye can follow.

After all, if we assume that the bolt is moving even half as fast as a gun shot, by the time the message can get from your eyes to your brain to down your arm to set you in motion, you've already been hit. The only way to get around this speed barrier is to assume that you can somehow anticipate the exact second the projectile is going to leave the barrel and then estimate how long of a delay it will take to get to you and time your own motions appropriately.

That said, that's my take on it and I find it more flavorful to make it so there are things that jedi can do that others just can't (after all, the way the system is set up, someone who has spent the points / priority picks to be a jedi is going to by definition be lacking in other areas when compared to someone who opted not to become a jedi. They should get something for that). But it's your game! Set it up how YOU want star wars to be. Personally, I'm thinking my version will win up looking something like this:

Image
(Courtesy of Sillof's Workshop)

The Samurai version is pretty amazing as well.
Image
Sword and Scoundrel: On Role-Playing and Fantasy Obscura

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife — chopping off what’s incomplete and saying: "Now it’s complete because it’s ended here."
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