Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

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Benedict
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Benedict » 12 Dec 2018, 10:08

thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 07:18
The thing is, IF I'm not missing anything (and there's always a chance of that, especially with me being so new to the game) Stealing Initiative, when the choice is an option (meaning 1st Tempo), is Always better than AfD, or should I say, its SAFER, in the off-chance that your attack doesn't finish your opponent and combat will continue on the next Tempo or Play.
Basically you are missing that AfD is the state you enter when you fail the Speed contest on Steal Initiative.

As for the other stuff.

Scoudrel's Luck / Dig Deep are available to PCs only.

With the new metal armor rules a -2c swing from a knife stands zero chance of doing anything against 5MR armor.

Example. 6d knife Swing BTV1 vs 5MR helm BTV1. At best he can get a MoS6 -2c knife -5 armor = 0.

He'd have to throw something like 13d Swing to score a Lv3 Wound:

MoS13 -2c knife -5 armor = 6 / 2 metal = Lv3 wound = 0.5 %.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thorgarth » 12 Dec 2018, 10:43

Benedict wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 10:08
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 07:18
The thing is, IF I'm not missing anything (and there's always a chance of that, especially with me being so new to the game) Stealing Initiative, when the choice is an option (meaning 1st Tempo), is Always better than AfD, or should I say, its SAFER, in the off-chance that your attack doesn't finish your opponent and combat will continue on the next Tempo or Play.
Basically you are missing that AfD is the state you enter when you fail the Speed contest on Steal Initiative.
I don't think so Benedict. Because even when you loose the Speed Roll, and attack second, you have the chance to steal initiative IF you roll more hits, whereas in AfD even if you roll more hits you still don't snatch initiative. Your only chance at this is IF your attack, via Impact, reduces your opponent to 0 CP in the next tempo. This makes it different.

As for the rest nothing to say. You are right.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Korbel » 12 Dec 2018, 10:55

thorgarth wrote:Because even when you loose the Speed Roll, and attack second, you have the chance to steal initiative IF you roll more hits, whereas in AfD even if you roll more hits you still don't snatch initiative.
That's true. So, Stealing is always better. Unless you don't care for initiative. And assuming you don't use dice to increase your Speed pool, as that can change the outcome.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thorgarth » 12 Dec 2018, 11:30

Benedict wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 10:08

With the new metal armor rules a -2c swing from a knife stands zero chance of doing anything against 5MR armor.

Example. 6d knife Swing BTV1 vs 5MR helm BTV1. At best he can get a MoS6 -2c knife -5 armor = 0.

He'd have to throw something like 13d Swing to score a Lv3 Wound:

MoS13 -2c knife -5 armor = 6 / 2 metal = Lv3 wound = 0.5 %.
Actually I'm trying to find the rule that states that metal armor reduces the level of the wound by half and can't. The only rules I could identify that allow metal armor to change how damage is dealt is on there Armor Traits, page 118. Metal armor converts cutting and piercing damage to Blunt, and if armor is rigid also, it then caps Blunt damage at wound level 3.

Where are you reading that metal armor reduces the wound value by half?
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Korbel » 12 Dec 2018, 11:40

thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 11:30
Benedict wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 10:08

With the new metal armor rules a -2c swing from a knife stands zero chance of doing anything against 5MR armor.

Example. 6d knife Swing BTV1 vs 5MR helm BTV1. At best he can get a MoS6 -2c knife -5 armor = 0.

He'd have to throw something like 13d Swing to score a Lv3 Wound:

MoS13 -2c knife -5 armor = 6 / 2 metal = Lv3 wound = 0.5 %.
Actually I'm trying to find the rule that states that metal armor reduces the level of the wound by half and can't. The only rules I could identify that allow metal armor to change how damage is dealt is on there Armor Traits, page 118. Metal armor converts cutting and piercing damage to Blunt, and if armor is rigid also, it then caps Blunt damage at wound level 3.

Where are you reading that metal armor reduces the wound value by half?
It's the new material Agamemnon published. Only available on Discord server at this moment, he's a sneaky scoundrel for doing that :)
Most probably this rule will be included in the next iteration.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thorgarth » 12 Dec 2018, 12:44

Korbel wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 11:40
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 11:30
Benedict wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 10:08

With the new metal armor rules a -2c swing from a knife stands zero chance of doing anything against 5MR armor.

Example. 6d knife Swing BTV1 vs 5MR helm BTV1. At best he can get a MoS6 -2c knife -5 armor = 0.

He'd have to throw something like 13d Swing to score a Lv3 Wound:

MoS13 -2c knife -5 armor = 6 / 2 metal = Lv3 wound = 0.5 %.
Actually I'm trying to find the rule that states that metal armor reduces the level of the wound by half and can't. The only rules I could identify that allow metal armor to change how damage is dealt is on there Armor Traits, page 118. Metal armor converts cutting and piercing damage to Blunt, and if armor is rigid also, it then caps Blunt damage at wound level 3.

Where are you reading that metal armor reduces the wound value by half?
It's the new material Agamemnon published. Only available on Discord server at this moment, he's a sneaky scoundrel for doing that :)
Most probably this rule will be included in the next iteration.
Ahhhh... A bastard he is for that.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Benedict » 12 Dec 2018, 14:51

thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 10:43
I don't think so Benedict. Because even when you loose the Speed Roll, and attack second, you have the chance to steal initiative IF you roll more hits, whereas in AfD even if you roll more hits you still don't snatch initiative.
True RAW. Think RAI is not that way. Agamemnon will clarify I guess.

As for the proposed changes, there's a doc floating around the discord server. Feel free to join the discussion there as well.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Agamemnon » 12 Dec 2018, 15:48

Benedict wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 14:51
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 10:43
I don't think so Benedict. Because even when you loose the Speed Roll, and attack second, you have the chance to steal initiative IF you roll more hits, whereas in AfD even if you roll more hits you still don't snatch initiative.
True RAW. Think RAI is not that way. Agamemnon will clarify I guess.

As for the proposed changes, there's a doc floating around the discord server. Feel free to join the discussion there as well.
Two points:
1) You can't steal initiative in the second tempo, so if you're choosing to attack from defense, it's most likely the second tempo anyway.

2) The material thrown up on the discord server is an experimental build of the combat system intended for the fecht-club guys there to go to town on and see if it smooths the rough spots they were reporting earlier without breaking anything else. They are thus not yet "official" rules. It seemed easier to do it this way than to have a new book update each week or something.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thorgarth » 12 Dec 2018, 20:02

As expected "Tribulations" was bound to have more "issues" than any other chapter, and here's two more that I would like to discuss here with you guys.

The first regards the definition "Restraining" attacks or maneuvers, and the extent of its effects.
  • 1
On page 201 "Note that certain maneuvers are restraining (pg XX). If a restraining maneuver lands before your attack lands, it automatically discards all of the dice allocated for your attack. Likewise, if their attack would disarm the weapon with which you are making your attack or disable the limb wielding it, the effect is the same." The focus here is in the loss of the allocated dice.

Which is different from what we find on...
  • 2
... page 205 "Some maneuvers are listed as restraining. Any time a maneuver is restraining, a successful attack counts as disabling per the above rules regardless of what was targeted.

As I see it what this means is not that any limb will actually be disabled, especially when no limb is actually targeted. What it means is that, like on page 201, any restraining maneuver that lands before your attack lands, it automatically discards all of the dice allocated for your attack. ", no matter where the attack you suffer first lands,.
  • 3
BUT this seems to contradict what is written a paragraph prior, in the same page 205, "Any time a maneuver successfully disables a limb, the attack will automatically negate any offensive maneuver based on said weapon or limb yet to be performed in the same tempo. ".


Does this mean that a restraining maneuver has the same effects of a simple disabling maneuver, but expanded to take effect from a maneuver that actually may target any area and not the specific limb or weapon which serves as the base for the offensive maneuver being restrained?
  • 4
Grappling rules on page 208., state "First, all attacks made while in a grapple are considered restraining." Does it make sense that a maneuver such as Bite to the chest or thigh make the opponent discard all dices allocated in a "counter strike" (lato sensu, not a specificities maneuver) being made by the weapon in his right limb? Or does a Grab or Hold maneuver made on the left limb of a character using the right to attack? In this case the disabled limb bears no direct effect on the limb being used to performa the offensive maneuver. To this effect "However, maintaining does not prevent the opponent from trying to steal initiative and attack with some other limb.", on page 209, which states that you can use another limb to attack, and thus the proving that a restraining maneuver only has the discarding dice effect when applied to the limb used in said maneuver.

It all seems a bit ambiguous, where "restraining" is sometimes treated as "disable", where this seems to apply "stricto sensu", meaning actually disabling a specific limb, whereas other times it applies just to the main effect that derives from such a disable BUT also already introduced the first time restraining is mentioned as a mechanics (page 201). It would greatly benefit from a clear definition of what "restraining" is and it´s precise effects, that makes it coherent under any example and rule its used in, because "Any time a maneuver successfully disables a limb, the attack will automatically negate any offensive maneuver based on said weapon or limb yet to be performed in the same tempo." contradicts " (...)successful attack counts as disabling per the above rules regardless of what was targeted".

Personally I think the rule as stated on page 201 seems to be the most correct and logic choice, meaning, the focus of restraining is to force the opponent to discard allocated dice to attacks declared for the tempo., bearing in mind that "Any time a maneuver successfully disables a limb, the attack will automatically negate any offensive maneuver based on said weapon or limb yet to be performed in the same tempo."

Disabling a limb is a secondary effect, as applicable under the specific situation.

I would also say that "Grappling also has an effect on weapons based on their reach. Hand and Close reach weapons work normally, but Short or longer reach weapons are limited to pommel strikes only. Likewise, grappling requires you to have at least one hand free. Weapons that require two hands cannot be employed at all.", which we find on page 208 also, would fall under the "restraining" mechanics.

Hope I made sense.


---------------

Second "issue", which is less an issue and more a lack of understanding the benefit of the maneuver, regards "Heavy Blow".

I've been pondering this and I sincerely cannot see the benefit in trading dice from the CP for damage done, on a 1 for 1 basis, in a system where the MoS directly adds to the damage value.

Meaning the CP dice allocated to the Heavy Blow advanced maneuver, 1 to 3, counts "only" as damage, whereas if the same dice were used to "fuel" the maneuver itself, not only it would raise the chance of more successes, and hence a higher chance of wining the contest vs the defensive maneuver, but if said offensive maneuver was successful it´s MoS would be proportionately higher, which would mean Damage would be higher in the same proportion.

I would understand if the rate was 1AC dice for +2 Damage. That would mean that you sacrificed accuracy for an added bonus to damage.

So, guys, what am I missing here to make investing dice from the CP "Heavy Blow" , as is, more efficient that just add those dice to fuel the offensive maneuver in the first place?
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thirtythr33 » 12 Dec 2018, 21:20

thorgarth wrote:Does this mean that a restraining maneuver has the same effects of a simple disabling maneuver, but expanded to take effect from a maneuver that actually may target any area and not the specific limb or weapon which serves as the base for the offensive maneuver being restrained?
Yes.

For example:
If you try to make a disarm, they can allow your maneuver to succeed and knock the sword from their hand while they declare a kick of their own.
If you try to make a grab, they can't harm you with either sword or foot without stealing initiative.

All grappling is considered to be restraining, because there are really a staggering amount of ways that grappling people can be positioned and tracking what limbs are restrained for what types of attacks is not really possible quickly and cleanly. Also, since there is no stomp in the grapple, automatic restraining in needed to prevent all-in attacks from defense. What you would usually view narrativly as an attack from defense in a grapple (such as punching someone who is strangling you) can be handled easily enough with stealing initiative.
thorgarth wrote:So, guys, what am I missing here to make investing dice from the CP "Heavy Blow" , as is, more efficient that just add those dice to fuel the offensive maneuver in the first place?
Heavy Blow is very useful in situation you know you are guaranteed to land the attack. For example, when you have found yourself in a red/red situation and your attack will be rolled unopposed. Likewise, you can use it as a finishing blow on people who have already taken a bunch of impact and can't properly defend themselves.

On the other hand, Heavy Blow is also quite useful when you have already taken a bad wound. If you are rolling at TN5, the Heavy Blow trade off is much more economic since you are not as likely to convert dice to damage on your attack. A wounded character throwing Heavy Blows might only need MOS1 to get back in the fight and still has to be dealt with carefully.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thorgarth » 12 Dec 2018, 22:56

thirtythr33 wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 21:20
thorgarth wrote:Does this mean that a restraining maneuver has the same effects of a simple disabling maneuver, but expanded to take effect from a maneuver that actually may target any area and not the specific limb or weapon which serves as the base for the offensive maneuver being restrained?
Yes.

For example:
If you try to make a disarm, they can allow your maneuver to succeed and knock the sword from their hand while they declare a kick of their own.
If you try to make a grab, they can't harm you with either sword or foot without stealing initiative.

All grappling is considered to be restraining, because there are really a staggering amount of ways that grappling people can be positioned and tracking what limbs are restrained for what types of attacks is not really possible quickly and cleanly. Also, since there is no stomp in the grapple, automatic restraining in needed to prevent all-in attacks from defense. What you would usually view narrativly as an attack from defense in a grapple (such as punching someone who is strangling you) can be handled easily enough with stealing initiative.
thorgarth wrote:So, guys, what am I missing here to make investing dice from the CP "Heavy Blow" , as is, more efficient that just add those dice to fuel the offensive maneuver in the first place?
Heavy Blow is very useful in situation you know you are guaranteed to land the attack. For example, when you have found yourself in a red/red situation and your attack will be rolled unopposed. Likewise, you can use it as a finishing blow on people who have already taken a bunch of impact and can't properly defend themselves.

On the other hand, Heavy Blow is also quite useful when you have already taken a bad wound. If you are rolling at TN5, the Heavy Blow trade off is much more economic since you are not as likely to convert dice to damage on your attack. A wounded character throwing Heavy Blows might only need MOS1 to get back in the fight and still has to be dealt with carefully.
So, basically if you are grappled by an opponent who has initiative, you can:

- in the first tempo (and first tempo only, since its the only moment where you can try it), try to steal initiative before you are grabbed or his hold on you is maintained. And since all attacks made in grapple are restraining if you managed to win the speed contest AND then are successful with the chosen attack, let's say thrust, for instance, the opponent´s offensive maneuver, which would be resolved after your own, is canceled and the dice discarded as per restraining rules.

OR

- you managed to defend with any of the three grapple defensive maneuvers, which would win you the initiative for the next tempo/play.

Right?

---------

As for the "Heavy Blow", I can see it in unopposed rolls, or blows where the opponents capacity is reduced to almost zero. But in the wounded character example it seems much less efficient or safer. Yes, a MoS 1 plus +3 to damage from Heavy Blow with AC3 can put you in the fight again BUT you need to first reach the MoS1, and if you are already with a TN5 the chances of that are much lower the less dice you dedicate to the contest itself. You not only need to succeed vs that target number but do so with more successes than your opponent. And the added +3 damage will only matter if you manage to first grab that minimal margin of success. Its a huge gamble, all right, unless you are attacking after managing to steal initiative, in which case you attack would be unopposed, and there you could try your luck with a somewhat larger safety margin.

That was food for thought Thirty. Cheers.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Benedict » 13 Dec 2018, 05:39

thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 22:56
- in the first tempo (and first tempo only, since its the only moment where you can try it), try to steal initiative before you are grabbed or his hold on you is maintained. And since all attacks made in grapple are restraining if you managed to win the speed contest AND then are successful with the chosen attack, let's say thrust, for instance, the opponent´s offensive maneuver, which would be resolved after your own, is canceled and the dice discarded as per restraining rules.
Correct. Just a heads up. When a Grab succeeds both combatants enter the Grappled state. When in a Grapple your standard melee maneuvers are limited to Disarm, Wrap, Swing, and Thrust, as well as the variant maneuvers Draw Cut and Pinpoint. Point blank may be used with a firearm, but no weapons can be thrown. Defensive maneuvers are restricted to grappling defenses alone. No links may be employed.
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 22:56
try to steal initiative before you are grabbed
Meaning that you cannot declare a Grab when in a Grapple.
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 22:56
- you managed to defend with any of the three grapple defensive maneuvers, which would win you the initiative for the next tempo/play.
Correct again.
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 22:56
As for the "Heavy Blow", I can see it in unopposed rolls, or blows where the opponents capacity is reduced to almost zero. But in the wounded character example it seems much less efficient or safer. Yes, a MoS 1 plus +3 to damage from Heavy Blow with AC3 can put you in the fight again BUT you need to first reach the MoS1, and if you are already with a TN5 the chances of that are much lower the less dice you dedicate to the contest itself. You not only need to succeed vs that target number but do so with more successes than your opponent. And the added +3 damage will only matter if you manage to first grab that minimal margin of success. Its a huge gamble, all right, unless you are attacking after managing to steal initiative, in which case you attack would be unopposed, and there you could try your luck with a somewhat larger safety margin.
Just take a look at the probabilities.

6d Swing TN5
91% Lv1
64% Lv2
31% Lv3
10% Lv4
1% Lv5

3d Heavy Blow +3 DR TN5
70% Lv4
25% Lv5

Of course the above probabilities do not take into account weapon, armor, and opponent's defense. Only attacker's MoS. Heavy Blow is best used when you can use it nearly unopposed, like in a small defenser CP, Deflect+Strike: Heavy Blow, Steal Initiative, or Attack from Defense good armor vs puny attack scenario.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by thorgarth » 13 Dec 2018, 08:00

Benedict wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 05:39
thorgarth wrote:
12 Dec 2018, 22:56
As for the "Heavy Blow", I can see it in unopposed rolls, or blows where the opponents capacity is reduced to almost zero. But in the wounded character example it seems much less efficient or safer. Yes, a MoS 1 plus +3 to damage from Heavy Blow with AC3 can put you in the fight again BUT you need to first reach the MoS1, and if you are already with a TN5 the chances of that are much lower the less dice you dedicate to the contest itself. You not only need to succeed vs that target number but do so with more successes than your opponent. And the added +3 damage will only matter if you manage to first grab that minimal margin of success. Its a huge gamble, all right, unless you are attacking after managing to steal initiative, in which case you attack would be unopposed, and there you could try your luck with a somewhat larger safety margin.
Just take a look at the probabilities.

6d Swing TN5
91% Lv1
64% Lv2
31% Lv3
10% Lv4
1% Lv5

3d Heavy Blow +3 DR TN5
70% Lv4
25% Lv5

Of course the above probabilities do not take into account weapon, armor, and opponent's defense. Only attacker's MoS. Heavy Blow is best used when you can use it nearly unopposed, like in a small defenser CP, Deflect+Strike: Heavy Blow, Steal Initiative, or Attack from Defense good armor vs puny attack scenario.
Those probabilities take into consideration the wound level, true, still the fact is that choosing to go with the 3d Heavy Blow+3DR TN5 instead of the 6d6 Swing TN5 more than triple the chance of not scoring a single success with any of the dice rolled, which would make the +3DR from Heavy Blow void. And then if you consider the reduced probability when you have to take into consideration any opposition, especially vs TN3 or 4, the chances go down the drain. It may be the only Hail Mary, true, but #%ck me, its a huge Hail Mary.

So basically, like you guys said, it will be mostly used when there is no chance of defense...

In any case I do think that the rate should, at the higher investment in cheer violence and mayhem, give a better tradeoff, meaning AC 1 and 2 would give a straight +1 and +2, respectively, but at AC3 the bonus to damage would be +4, to reflect the full commitment, and the lower chance of success, especially at TN5.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Benedict » 13 Dec 2018, 09:28

thorgarth wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 08:00
still the fact is that choosing to go with the 3d Heavy Blow+3DR TN5 instead of the 6d6 Swing TN5 more than triple the chance of not scoring a single success with any of the dice rolled, which would make the +3DR from Heavy Blow void
What you don't take into account is what a single die represents.

1d6 vs
TN2 : 83% hit
TN3 : 66% hit
TN4 : 50% hit
TN5 : 33% hit
TN6 : 16% hit

Which means that the higher the TN you are rolling under the better the return from Heavy Blow. Cos 1d=+1MoS by default for damage.
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Re: Sword & Scoundrel 0.2.0 Feedback : Book IV : Tribulation

Post by Agamemnon » 13 Dec 2018, 11:29

Like most things in combat, Heavy Blow is a gambling mechanic. You're choosing a bigger risk for a bigger reward. The main places where it's useful are:
  • When your opponent has a higher TN, so you suspect you'll need fewer dice to beat them.
  • When you have a higher TN, in hopes of getting a lucky shot in that evens the playing field.
  • When you are using a compound maneuver, where you probably won't get many dice for the follow-up attack to begin with
  • When you're going into a red/red, in which case you only really need MoS1 on the attack, provided you can do enough damage
  • When the other guy is at a big dice disadvantage due to impact or the like
Even if you're at TN3, each die you spend on your attack is going to end up something like 0.66 of a wound level. If you have a significant die advantage on your opponent, increased probability of success has diminishing returns compared to trading dice for damage at a 1:1 ratio.
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